We had a chat again:
* Etoys will follow the Sugar release schedule: http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/0.90/Roadmap * should prepare a first alpha release in June, with translations and DrGeo for wider testing * also camera support hopefully, need to simplify interface * there is a decompiler problem, possibly because of Eliot's changes * multi-touch working pretty well on iPad now * need idea about how to debug missing mouse-overs
Full log below, as usual. And see you next Monday, same time:
- Bert -
<bertf> hi karl <karlram> hi <karlram> not maye here <karlram> many <bertf> yep <bertf> busy, hopefully ;) <karlram> he he <karlram> I had some issues with a ehancement I integrated <karlram> enhancement <bertf> the broken viewers? --> hilaire (~hilaire@bon74-1-88-184-136-97.fbx.proxad.net) has joined #etoys <bertf> ah, hi hilaire :) <karlram> jup , it added all sort of stuff to variables categorie <hilaire> hello <karlram> hi <bertf> do you think it's okay now? <karlram> It was a one line fix <bertf> good <bertf> hilaire: thanks for submitting dr geo :) <karlram> But images must get past the bad fix without opening a viewer.... <bertf> I wouldn't worry too much abouht that <karlram> Ok <bertf> we're just a handful people updating regularly I think <karlram> you are right <bertf> do we need a do-it to fix it, if someone loaded the broken version? <karlram> I had another issue <karlram> deleting a etoy variable seems broken <karlram> when the variable is part of a etoy script <bertf> hmm. that should be a blocker ticket <bertf> just so it is not forgotten <bertf> you mean when the var is already used in a script? <karlram> I'll add it, the Decompiler complains about some issues <bertf> ah. might have to do with eliots changes then <karlram> Should I notify Eliot ? <bertf> wouldn't hurt <karlram> Ok <bertf> in any case, we should commit to a release schedule. I think adopting the Sugar one makes sense <karlram> and sugar release is ? <bertf> a July release would be too rushed <bertf> I sent mail about that, give me a second to find it <bertf> http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/0.90/Roadmap <karlram> July seems very close <bertf> right. september sounds sensible <bertf> we still should try to get an alpha release out asap <bertf> including dr geo and the new translations <bertf> so more people can test that stuff <karlram> Sound good <karlram> dr geo is big , in many ways <karlram> :-) <karlram> a huge framework <karlram> and lots of classes <karlram> and lot and lots of new stuff to learn :-) <bertf> indeed <bertf> but if we can get the fonts out of the image, we still will have a smaller image even with dr geo included <bertf> richo started on that <bertf> he pushed Andreas' font loader code <bertf> maybe we should start freezign features a bit earlier than the Sugar schedule ... <bertf> hilaire: did you want to talk about somethign specifically? <karlram> what about the camera morph stuff ? <karlram> wait another release to mature? <hilaire> bertf: no <bertf> karlram: no I think it would be a nice feature to have <bertf> karlram: but I would start simple <bertf> hilaire: okay. thanks for stopping by :) <bertf> karlram: the current one has too many controls. we should put in just the bare minimum and then see what people find missing <bertf> but having camera support on all platforms would be awesome <karlram> Sounds good <karlram> Many of the controls are a bit hard to understand :-) <bertf> yeah <hilaire> I need to rest <hilaire> bye <karlram> ye <karlram> bye <hilaire> add a hard time with students today.. <-- hilaire (~hilaire@bon74-1-88-184-136-97.fbx.proxad.net) has left #etoys <karlram> Students are not always what you want them to be :-) <karlram> I sent a mail to Eliot about http://tracker.squeakland.org/browse/SQ-710 <bertf> thanks <bertf> I got multitouch workign this weekend :) <bertf> on the iPad <bertf> you can draw with more than one finger, or move multiple objects at once <bertf> pretty cool <bertf> now if you also could rotate and scale them with two fingers that would be awesome :) <karlram> Oh, sound cool <bertf> And now that I compiled the VM with enabled optimizations it's even quite usable ;) <karlram> I remember some issues with mouse over states from earlier touch based computers <bertf> I was using it without optimizations for like two weeks .. was rather slow <bertf> yes, some things rely on mouse overs <bertf> e.g. the color selector in the paint box <bertf> I'd have thought it goes away on mouse-up, but apparently noe <bertf> not <bertf> hmm. your Etoys-kfr.19 looks identical ... <karlram> I was fighting mouse over issue with SelectionMourh, very annoying.... <bertf> but there is no diff <bertf> no changes <karlram> Hm, very weird, my image had the wrong method still displaying... <karlram> I got confuced... <karlram> confused <karlram> lol <bertf> always check changes before committing <karlram> I know <karlram> Back to the mouse over issues, do you know a good way to debug them ? <bertf> I'd simulate at touch event <bertf> that is, filter out all mousemove events that have button=0 <bertf> so you only get mouse down, move, and up, but no moves after mouse up <bertf> that should recreate the problem on a normal machine <karlram> ok <karlram> ipad is not a very fast machine ? <bertf> karlram: it feels very fast <bertf> just not in etoys <bertf> for Etoys it's about the XO-1 speed I would say <bertf> so not great but usable <bertf> okay, thanks for chatting, I'll send the log as usual :)
Sorry I missed this weeks mtg. I hope to put spend some more time on WebCamMorph this weekend...
- also camera support hopefully, need to simplify interface
<bertf> karlram: the current one has too many controls. we should put in just the bare minimum and then see what people find missing <bertf> but having camera support on all platforms would be awesome <karlram> Sounds good <karlram> Many of the controls are a bit hard to understand :-)
Last weekend I added help text to both the SqueakSource wiki and in the class comments. If these are not enough then let me know.
WebCamMorph started off as a simple demo of how to use CameraPlugin class and any further development was really just me satisfying my own curiosity. If it does not satisfy Etoys educational needs then feel free to chop it up as you see fit. Alternatively give me a clear idea of just how simple you want it and I will see what I can do. The simplest version I can think of is no control over resolution/fps/etc and just a single "capture" command (including display update). To me this seems too simply though because we are dealing with a video camera and not a common digital camera used to take snapshots. The two have different purposes and work differently as a consequence and the current controls in WebCamMorph are simply a reflection of that.
-D
On 07/06/10 21:26, Bert Freudenberg wrote:
We had a chat again:
- Etoys will follow the Sugar release schedule: http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/0.90/Roadmap
- should prepare a first alpha release in June, with translations and DrGeo for wider testing
- also camera support hopefully, need to simplify interface
- there is a decompiler problem, possibly because of Eliot's changes
- multi-touch working pretty well on iPad now
- need idea about how to debug missing mouse-overs
Full log below, as usual. And see you next Monday, same time:
- Bert -
<bertf> hi karl <karlram> hi <karlram> not maye here <karlram> many <bertf> yep <bertf> busy, hopefully ;) <karlram> he he <karlram> I had some issues with a ehancement I integrated <karlram> enhancement <bertf> the broken viewers? --> hilaire (~hilaire@bon74-1-88-184-136-97.fbx.proxad.net) has joined #etoys <bertf> ah, hi hilaire :) <karlram> jup , it added all sort of stuff to variables categorie <hilaire> hello <karlram> hi <bertf> do you think it's okay now? <karlram> It was a one line fix <bertf> good <bertf> hilaire: thanks for submitting dr geo :) <karlram> But images must get past the bad fix without opening a viewer.... <bertf> I wouldn't worry too much abouht that <karlram> Ok <bertf> we're just a handful people updating regularly I think <karlram> you are right <bertf> do we need a do-it to fix it, if someone loaded the broken version? <karlram> I had another issue <karlram> deleting a etoy variable seems broken <karlram> when the variable is part of a etoy script <bertf> hmm. that should be a blocker ticket <bertf> just so it is not forgotten <bertf> you mean when the var is already used in a script? <karlram> I'll add it, the Decompiler complains about some issues <bertf> ah. might have to do with eliots changes then <karlram> Should I notify Eliot ? <bertf> wouldn't hurt <karlram> Ok <bertf> in any case, we should commit to a release schedule. I think adopting the Sugar one makes sense <karlram> and sugar release is ? <bertf> a July release would be too rushed <bertf> I sent mail about that, give me a second to find it <bertf> http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/0.90/Roadmap <karlram> July seems very close <bertf> right. september sounds sensible <bertf> we still should try to get an alpha release out asap <bertf> including dr geo and the new translations <bertf> so more people can test that stuff <karlram> Sound good <karlram> dr geo is big , in many ways <karlram> :-) <karlram> a huge framework <karlram> and lots of classes <karlram> and lot and lots of new stuff to learn :-) <bertf> indeed <bertf> but if we can get the fonts out of the image, we still will have a smaller image even with dr geo included <bertf> richo started on that <bertf> he pushed Andreas' font loader code <bertf> maybe we should start freezign features a bit earlier than the Sugar schedule ... <bertf> hilaire: did you want to talk about somethign specifically? <karlram> what about the camera morph stuff ? <karlram> wait another release to mature? <hilaire> bertf: no <bertf> karlram: no I think it would be a nice feature to have <bertf> karlram: but I would start simple <bertf> hilaire: okay. thanks for stopping by :) <bertf> karlram: the current one has too many controls. we should put in just the bare minimum and then see what people find missing <bertf> but having camera support on all platforms would be awesome <karlram> Sounds good <karlram> Many of the controls are a bit hard to understand :-) <bertf> yeah <hilaire> I need to rest <hilaire> bye <karlram> ye <karlram> bye <hilaire> add a hard time with students today.. <-- hilaire (~hilaire@bon74-1-88-184-136-97.fbx.proxad.net) has left #etoys <karlram> Students are not always what you want them to be :-) <karlram> I sent a mail to Eliot about http://tracker.squeakland.org/browse/SQ-710 <bertf> thanks <bertf> I got multitouch workign this weekend :) <bertf> on the iPad <bertf> you can draw with more than one finger, or move multiple objects at once <bertf> pretty cool <bertf> now if you also could rotate and scale them with two fingers that would be awesome :) <karlram> Oh, sound cool <bertf> And now that I compiled the VM with enabled optimizations it's even quite usable ;) <karlram> I remember some issues with mouse over states from earlier touch based computers <bertf> I was using it without optimizations for like two weeks .. was rather slow <bertf> yes, some things rely on mouse overs <bertf> e.g. the color selector in the paint box <bertf> I'd have thought it goes away on mouse-up, but apparently noe <bertf> not <bertf> hmm. your Etoys-kfr.19 looks identical ... <karlram> I was fighting mouse over issue with SelectionMourh, very annoying.... <bertf> but there is no diff <bertf> no changes <karlram> Hm, very weird, my image had the wrong method still displaying... <karlram> I got confuced... <karlram> confused <karlram> lol <bertf> always check changes before committing <karlram> I know <karlram> Back to the mouse over issues, do you know a good way to debug them ? <bertf> I'd simulate at touch event <bertf> that is, filter out all mousemove events that have button=0 <bertf> so you only get mouse down, move, and up, but no moves after mouse up <bertf> that should recreate the problem on a normal machine <karlram> ok <karlram> ipad is not a very fast machine ? <bertf> karlram: it feels very fast <bertf> just not in etoys <bertf> for Etoys it's about the XO-1 speed I would say <bertf> so not great but usable <bertf> okay, thanks for chatting, I'll send the log as usual :)_______________________________________________ etoys-dev mailing list etoys-dev@squeakland.org http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys-dev
Derek,
Thanks for your work on the WebCamMorph it will be a great addition to Etoys. In order for the education team to review this a version (when you have it ready) embedded in a Etoys project (as not all of the education team knows how to get the latest versions from the repository) would be helpful. FYI, I tried loading the project from the Showcase TimeLapse.004.pr but got an exception when loading. I will send you the log file separately (as sometimes when I include files my messages get rejected by the mail list server).
Again many thanks for your efforts.
Stephen
On Thu, Jun 10, 2010 at 5:18 AM, Derek O'Connell doc@doconnel.f9.co.ukwrote:
Sorry I missed this weeks mtg. I hope to put spend some more time on WebCamMorph this weekend...
- also camera support hopefully, need to simplify interface
<bertf> karlram: the current one has too many controls. we should put in
just the bare minimum and then see what people find missing <bertf> but having camera support on all platforms would be awesome <karlram> Sounds good <karlram> Many of the controls are a bit hard to understand :-)
Last weekend I added help text to both the SqueakSource wiki and in the class comments. If these are not enough then let me know.
WebCamMorph started off as a simple demo of how to use CameraPlugin class and any further development was really just me satisfying my own curiosity. If it does not satisfy Etoys educational needs then feel free to chop it up as you see fit. Alternatively give me a clear idea of just how simple you want it and I will see what I can do. The simplest version I can think of is no control over resolution/fps/etc and just a single "capture" command (including display update). To me this seems too simply though because we are dealing with a video camera and not a common digital camera used to take snapshots. The two have different purposes and work differently as a consequence and the current controls in WebCamMorph are simply a reflection of that.
-D
On 07/06/10 21:26, Bert Freudenberg wrote:
We had a chat again:
- Etoys will follow the Sugar release schedule: http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/0.90/Roadmap
- should prepare a first alpha release in June, with translations and
DrGeo for wider testing
- also camera support hopefully, need to simplify interface
- there is a decompiler problem, possibly because of Eliot's changes
- multi-touch working pretty well on iPad now
- need idea about how to debug missing mouse-overs
Full log below, as usual. And see you next Monday, same time:
http://tinyurl.com/2bjpzbe
- Bert -
<bertf> hi karl <karlram> hi <karlram> not maye here <karlram> many <bertf> yep <bertf> busy, hopefully ;) <karlram> he he <karlram> I had some issues with a ehancement I integrated <karlram> enhancement <bertf> the broken viewers? --> hilaire (~hilaire@bon74-1-88-184-136-97.fbx.proxad.net) has joined #etoys <bertf> ah, hi hilaire :) <karlram> jup , it added all sort of stuff to variables categorie <hilaire> hello <karlram> hi <bertf> do you think it's okay now? <karlram> It was a one line fix <bertf> good <bertf> hilaire: thanks for submitting dr geo :) <karlram> But images must get past the bad fix without opening a viewer.... <bertf> I wouldn't worry too much abouht that <karlram> Ok <bertf> we're just a handful people updating regularly I think <karlram> you are right <bertf> do we need a do-it to fix it, if someone loaded the broken version? <karlram> I had another issue <karlram> deleting a etoy variable seems broken <karlram> when the variable is part of a etoy script <bertf> hmm. that should be a blocker ticket <bertf> just so it is not forgotten <bertf> you mean when the var is already used in a script? <karlram> I'll add it, the Decompiler complains about some issues <bertf> ah. might have to do with eliots changes then <karlram> Should I notify Eliot ? <bertf> wouldn't hurt <karlram> Ok <bertf> in any case, we should commit to a release schedule. I think adopting the Sugar one makes sense <karlram> and sugar release is ? <bertf> a July release would be too rushed <bertf> I sent mail about that, give me a second to find it <bertf> http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/0.90/Roadmap <karlram> July seems very close <bertf> right. september sounds sensible <bertf> we still should try to get an alpha release out asap <bertf> including dr geo and the new translations <bertf> so more people can test that stuff <karlram> Sound good <karlram> dr geo is big , in many ways <karlram> :-) <karlram> a huge framework <karlram> and lots of classes <karlram> and lot and lots of new stuff to learn :-) <bertf> indeed <bertf> but if we can get the fonts out of the image, we still will have a smaller image even with dr geo included <bertf> richo started on that <bertf> he pushed Andreas' font loader code <bertf> maybe we should start freezign features a bit earlier than the Sugar schedule ... <bertf> hilaire: did you want to talk about somethign specifically? <karlram> what about the camera morph stuff ? <karlram> wait another release to mature? <hilaire> bertf: no <bertf> karlram: no I think it would be a nice feature to have <bertf> karlram: but I would start simple <bertf> hilaire: okay. thanks for stopping by :) <bertf> karlram: the current one has too many controls. we should put in just the bare minimum and then see what people find missing <bertf> but having camera support on all platforms would be awesome <karlram> Sounds good <karlram> Many of the controls are a bit hard to understand :-) <bertf> yeah <hilaire> I need to rest <hilaire> bye <karlram> ye <karlram> bye <hilaire> add a hard time with students today.. <-- hilaire (~hilaire@bon74-1-88-184-136-97.fbx.proxad.net) has left #etoys <karlram> Students are not always what you want them to be :-) <karlram> I sent a mail to Eliot about http://tracker.squeakland.org/browse/SQ-710 <bertf> thanks <bertf> I got multitouch workign this weekend :) <bertf> on the iPad <bertf> you can draw with more than one finger, or move multiple objects at once <bertf> pretty cool <bertf> now if you also could rotate and scale them with two fingers that would be awesome :) <karlram> Oh, sound cool <bertf> And now that I compiled the VM with enabled optimizations it's even quite usable ;) <karlram> I remember some issues with mouse over states from earlier touch based computers <bertf> I was using it without optimizations for like two weeks .. was rather slow <bertf> yes, some things rely on mouse overs <bertf> e.g. the color selector in the paint box <bertf> I'd have thought it goes away on mouse-up, but apparently noe <bertf> not <bertf> hmm. your Etoys-kfr.19 looks identical ... <karlram> I was fighting mouse over issue with SelectionMourh, very annoying.... <bertf> but there is no diff <bertf> no changes <karlram> Hm, very weird, my image had the wrong method still displaying... <karlram> I got confuced... <karlram> confused <karlram> lol <bertf> always check changes before committing <karlram> I know <karlram> Back to the mouse over issues, do you know a good way to debug them ? <bertf> I'd simulate at touch event <bertf> that is, filter out all mousemove events that have button=0 <bertf> so you only get mouse down, move, and up, but no moves after mouse up <bertf> that should recreate the problem on a normal machine <karlram> ok <karlram> ipad is not a very fast machine ? <bertf> karlram: it feels very fast <bertf> just not in etoys <bertf> for Etoys it's about the XO-1 speed I would say <bertf> so not great but usable <bertf> okay, thanks for chatting, I'll send the log as usual :)_______________________________________________ etoys-dev mailing list etoys-dev@squeakland.org http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys-dev
etoys-dev mailing list etoys-dev@squeakland.org http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys-dev
On Thu, Jun 10, 2010 at 11:18 AM, Derek O'Connell doc@doconnel.f9.co.ukwrote:
Sorry I missed this weeks mtg. I hope to put spend some more time on WebCamMorph this weekend...
- also camera support hopefully, need to simplify interface
<bertf> karlram: the current one has too many controls. we should put in
just the bare minimum and then see what people find missing <bertf> but having camera support on all platforms would be awesome <karlram> Sounds good <karlram> Many of the controls are a bit hard to understand :-)
Last weekend I added help text to both the SqueakSource wiki and in the class comments. If these are not enough then let me know.
WebCamMorph started off as a simple demo of how to use CameraPlugin class and any further development was really just me satisfying my own curiosity. If it does not satisfy Etoys educational needs then feel free to chop it up as you see fit. Alternatively give me a clear idea of just how simple you want it and I will see what I can do. The simplest version I can think of is no control over resolution/fps/etc and just a single "capture" command (including display update). To me this seems too simply though because we are dealing with a video camera and not a common digital camera used to take snapshots. The two have different purposes and work differently as a consequence and the current controls in WebCamMorph are simply a reflection of that.
-D
I guess how one wants to use the webcam is the deciding factor.
As you said these are the most basic needed:
Camera is on [true/false] Camera last frame (as from old camera morph)
To capture motion one can just have a ticking script adding Camera last frame to a holder.
This would be very rudimentary
How to show more features and what features are needed for etoy use must be discussed.
As Bert said before, once added, features are hard to remove without breaking compatibility.
Karl
On 07/06/10 21:26, Bert Freudenberg wrote:
We had a chat again:
- Etoys will follow the Sugar release schedule: http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/0.90/Roadmap
- should prepare a first alpha release in June, with translations and
DrGeo for wider testing
- also camera support hopefully, need to simplify interface
- there is a decompiler problem, possibly because of Eliot's changes
- multi-touch working pretty well on iPad now
- need idea about how to debug missing mouse-overs
Full log below, as usual. And see you next Monday, same time:
http://tinyurl.com/2bjpzbe
- Bert -
<bertf> hi karl <karlram> hi <karlram> not maye here <karlram> many <bertf> yep <bertf> busy, hopefully ;) <karlram> he he <karlram> I had some issues with a ehancement I integrated <karlram> enhancement <bertf> the broken viewers? --> hilaire (~hilaire@bon74-1-88-184-136-97.fbx.proxad.net) has joined #etoys <bertf> ah, hi hilaire :) <karlram> jup , it added all sort of stuff to variables categorie <hilaire> hello <karlram> hi <bertf> do you think it's okay now? <karlram> It was a one line fix <bertf> good <bertf> hilaire: thanks for submitting dr geo :) <karlram> But images must get past the bad fix without opening a viewer.... <bertf> I wouldn't worry too much abouht that <karlram> Ok <bertf> we're just a handful people updating regularly I think <karlram> you are right <bertf> do we need a do-it to fix it, if someone loaded the broken version? <karlram> I had another issue <karlram> deleting a etoy variable seems broken <karlram> when the variable is part of a etoy script <bertf> hmm. that should be a blocker ticket <bertf> just so it is not forgotten <bertf> you mean when the var is already used in a script? <karlram> I'll add it, the Decompiler complains about some issues <bertf> ah. might have to do with eliots changes then <karlram> Should I notify Eliot ? <bertf> wouldn't hurt <karlram> Ok <bertf> in any case, we should commit to a release schedule. I think adopting the Sugar one makes sense <karlram> and sugar release is ? <bertf> a July release would be too rushed <bertf> I sent mail about that, give me a second to find it <bertf> http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/0.90/Roadmap <karlram> July seems very close <bertf> right. september sounds sensible <bertf> we still should try to get an alpha release out asap <bertf> including dr geo and the new translations <bertf> so more people can test that stuff <karlram> Sound good <karlram> dr geo is big , in many ways <karlram> :-) <karlram> a huge framework <karlram> and lots of classes <karlram> and lot and lots of new stuff to learn :-) <bertf> indeed <bertf> but if we can get the fonts out of the image, we still will have a smaller image even with dr geo included <bertf> richo started on that <bertf> he pushed Andreas' font loader code <bertf> maybe we should start freezign features a bit earlier than the Sugar schedule ... <bertf> hilaire: did you want to talk about somethign specifically? <karlram> what about the camera morph stuff ? <karlram> wait another release to mature? <hilaire> bertf: no <bertf> karlram: no I think it would be a nice feature to have <bertf> karlram: but I would start simple <bertf> hilaire: okay. thanks for stopping by :) <bertf> karlram: the current one has too many controls. we should put in just the bare minimum and then see what people find missing <bertf> but having camera support on all platforms would be awesome <karlram> Sounds good <karlram> Many of the controls are a bit hard to understand :-) <bertf> yeah <hilaire> I need to rest <hilaire> bye <karlram> ye <karlram> bye <hilaire> add a hard time with students today.. <-- hilaire (~hilaire@bon74-1-88-184-136-97.fbx.proxad.net) has left #etoys <karlram> Students are not always what you want them to be :-) <karlram> I sent a mail to Eliot about http://tracker.squeakland.org/browse/SQ-710 <bertf> thanks <bertf> I got multitouch workign this weekend :) <bertf> on the iPad <bertf> you can draw with more than one finger, or move multiple objects at once <bertf> pretty cool <bertf> now if you also could rotate and scale them with two fingers that would be awesome :) <karlram> Oh, sound cool <bertf> And now that I compiled the VM with enabled optimizations it's even quite usable ;) <karlram> I remember some issues with mouse over states from earlier touch based computers <bertf> I was using it without optimizations for like two weeks .. was rather slow <bertf> yes, some things rely on mouse overs <bertf> e.g. the color selector in the paint box <bertf> I'd have thought it goes away on mouse-up, but apparently noe <bertf> not <bertf> hmm. your Etoys-kfr.19 looks identical ... <karlram> I was fighting mouse over issue with SelectionMourh, very annoying.... <bertf> but there is no diff <bertf> no changes <karlram> Hm, very weird, my image had the wrong method still displaying... <karlram> I got confuced... <karlram> confused <karlram> lol <bertf> always check changes before committing <karlram> I know <karlram> Back to the mouse over issues, do you know a good way to debug them ? <bertf> I'd simulate at touch event <bertf> that is, filter out all mousemove events that have button=0 <bertf> so you only get mouse down, move, and up, but no moves after mouse up <bertf> that should recreate the problem on a normal machine <karlram> ok <karlram> ipad is not a very fast machine ? <bertf> karlram: it feels very fast <bertf> just not in etoys <bertf> for Etoys it's about the XO-1 speed I would say <bertf> so not great but usable <bertf> okay, thanks for chatting, I'll send the log as usual :)_______________________________________________ etoys-dev mailing list etoys-dev@squeakland.org http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys-dev
etoys-dev mailing list etoys-dev@squeakland.org http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys-dev
Hi all,
very lively chat today, you should have been there :)
Topics included:
* import/export of data and objects as files * Randy wants to send single objects by Email, not just projects * resurrecting some network sharing code * perhaps make it work in the local network? * need discovery mechanism like Etoys uses under Sugar * use VNC instead of (or to implement a new version of) Nebraska? * and hypothetically, Croquet sharing * finally, some book sprint talk I didn't quite catch, but there surely will be a separate mail
Full log below, as usual. And see you next Monday, same time:
- Bert -
--> Richo2 (~be126361@skylab.immuexa.com) has joined #etoys --> hilaire (~hilaire@bon74-1-88-184-136-97.fbx.proxad.net) has joined #etoys --> randycat (~cebcff48@skylab.immuexa.com) has joined #etoys --> morphle (~5065b030@skylab.immuexa.com) has joined #etoys <Richo2> hi <bertf> hi --> ritaf (~ritaf@mgdb-4db8d798.pool.mediaWays.net) has joined #etoys *** Mode #etoys +v ritaf by ChanServ <randycat> hi Richo <ritaf> hi --> jecel (~jecel@189-19-1-51.dsl.telesp.net.br) has joined #etoys *** Mode #etoys +v jecel by ChanServ <randycat> hi Rita <bertf> a few more folks than ususal here today :) <bertf> anything specific you guys want to talk about? <randycat> We would like to talk about Richo's next tools <hilaire> hello <bertf> hi Hilaire <bertf> randycat: sure. let's start <-- atphalix (~hmd@41.248.178.149) has left #etoys <randycat> do you want to start with Richo or authoring <bertf> so what's the next steps going to be? <bertf> 'authoring"? <randycat> 1. to develop an object to output and input data <randycat> the title above says the session is about authoring is always on <Richo2> the idea would be to serialize morphs in files <Richo2> to send them in mails <Richo2> or somethink like that <Richo2> I tried a naive approach using ReferenceStream <Richo2> and it worked except for the scripts <Richo2> because the player class was not in the image <bertf> randycat: no, that's the general idea of Etoys :) <Richo2> so I tried to serialize the player class <randycat> Rita suggested that you all might have things developed or ideas about how best tp proceed <Richo2> but it didn't worked <randycat> Richo: are you just dealing with text data now? <bertf> randycat: input and output of what kind of data? <randycat> text to start with <Richo2> I started trying to export entire morphs <Richo2> that's more fun than just text <randycat> then graphics and etoys like a flying airplaine (a sub project for reuse) <bertf> Richo2: I'd think the point is more to be able to exchange data with non-Etoys systems <ritaf> in our chat we talked about nebraska or other ways to exchange objects <randycat> also to output data for analysis of student progress <Richo2> yes, but also to share morphs between projects <bertf> we can share objects between projects already <randycat> something like Squeak Basket developed in Japan <bertf> facilities for text input and output are pretty much missing <randycat> I haven't had trouble sharing by putting the morph in the supplies, but Stephen has <Richo2> how do you send a morph to an image in another computer? <Richo2> I mean, the morph only, not the entire project <bertf> saving objects to a file will be even more trouble <bertf> Richo2: what's wrong with sending the project? <bertf> under Sugar you can send an object directly <bertf> providing the same on the local network would be cool <Richo2> what we talked about in the education meeting was to be able to share individual morphs, not just projects <Richo2> the idea of having a repository of objects <Richo2> were kids would put their morphs, drawings, etc. and others would get them out for their own project <randycat> could Richo pull out the part of Nebraska that shared projects on the network? <Richo2> I didn't know sugar was able to do that <bertf> nebraska is for screen sharing <bertf> etoys is able to do that, not sugar <Richo2> oh <bertf> but sugar provides thediscovery mechanism <randycat> but you could drop a morph on a badge to send it <Richo2> yes, nebraska lets you send morphs <bertf> you can do that on any machine, but you have to type in IP adresses <Richo2> yes, that's why the idea of using files came out <bertf> randycat: that badge dropping is what we use in Sugar <bertf> Well you can save a morph in a file which should be pretty much equicvalent <bertf> but you could check the badge sendign code <randycat> is there a badge object in Etoys sugar? <Richo2> I didn't know that was still working in current etoys --> matmo (~chatzilla@doconnel.force9.co.uk) has joined #etoys <bertf> yes <matmo> hi all <Richo2> hi <bertf> hi <bertf> randycat: it's even in your image, in the object catalog under B <bertf> or so <randycat> I'm glad it still works <Richo2> :P <Richo2> I didn't even look for it <ritaf> what do I have to do to send an object? <bertf> get you peer's badge, drop the object onto it <ritaf> could I type randys ip address and send him an object? <randycat> what if you want to email the morph because the recipient is offline? <bertf> if both you and randy had a real ip address then yes. in rality, you're both behind a NAT firewall, which broke the internet years ago <randycat> do you want to try it Rita? I can start etoys and send you my IP <ritaf> yes, let's try! <bertf> home computers cannot talk to each other anymore <bertf> randycat: you have a fixed IP adress? <bertf> I know for sure that Rita doesn't ;) <ritaf> so it's only working in a local network? <bertf> everywhere you can make a direct connection <randycat> I just checked and I don't have a fixed IP <Richo2> well, if this still works then I can look at how it serializes objects and modify it a little to store them in a file <bertf> Sugar uses a framewrok called "Telepathy" which hides the gory details <Richo2> that's what the "share" button does? --> dcorking (~dcorking@91.85.186.26) has joined #etoys <bertf> it uses the local network or a direct connection or a server-based connection transparently <bertf> Richo2: yes <Richo2> I just noticed the button is not in the sugar bar anymore <bertf> under sugar it is <Richo2> ohh <Richo2> I need to install sugar... <randycat> my badge doenst show my IP as it used to - is that a bad sign? I do have an IP in my network settings, but it may not be fixed <bertf> it puts your Etoys into the network view so others can join just by clicking on your icon. for everyone who joins, you get a badge. then you can just drop objects on a badge to send them <bertf> randycat: hasn't been used in a long time, might have got broken. currently we don;t support it. <bertf> but sugar uses the same badge, pretty much <Richo2> well, I will play with it and see if it works <randycat> bert: don't I also need a receiver + a badge? --> drgeo (~drgeo@bon74-1-88-184-136-97.fbx.proxad.net) has joined #etoys <bertf> randycat: as I said, the usewr interfasce is terrible. only meant for demos <bertf> randycat: you do not need a badge for you, but for your peer <bertf> entering the peer's ip address should work <bertf> if you open a listener, that is <bertf> rits: what's your ip? <randycat> rita: what is you IP? I will try to chat via Etoys? <bertf> randycat: you cannot <ritaf> 192.168.178.28 <bertf> rita is behind a firewall. I'm in the same local network as she so I can try locally here <randycat> Bert: Ok, but i'm curious - where is the listener? <bertf> I'm trying to find it <bertf> I think we hid it thoroughly <bertf> try "EToyListenerMorph new open" <randycat> can you find it in the morph list if you disable etoys friendly? <bertf> in the "new morph ..." menu under E, yes <bertf> rita: do you have a listener opened? <randycat> Thanks Bert, I found it <ritaf> yes --> karlram (~51aa9a20@skylab.immuexa.com) has joined #etoys <bertf> Cmd-Shift-W, new morph, alphabetical, E, EtoysListenerMorph <bertf> then click the black head <karlram> Hi <ritaf> Hi Karl <bertf> so ot starts listening <bertf> hi karl <bertf> ritaf: ready? <ritaf> hihi, looks funny <ritaf> thanks! <ritaf> cool <ritaf> it's still turning <bertf> so I just sent Rita an object I painted, including a running script <ritaf> and we chat! <bertf> text chat works too, kind-of <bertf> (she's in a room upstairs) <ritaf> wow, we need to document this <bertf> no we need to fix the UI <randycat> i have also used audio chat <Richo2> great news! <-- hilaire (~hilaire@bon74-1-88-184-136-97.fbx.proxad.net) has quit (Remote host closed the connection) <randycat> would it be easy to modify this for email? <bertf> the saving itself yes, I'd think <bertf> but interfacing to your system's email client, well, trickier <randycat> I used to use Nebraska with kids and they loved it - the hilight of their Etoys experience <bertf> but it's just screen sharing. tv basically <bertf> somethign way more cool, but also way more complicated, is netmorphs <randycat> once it is saved, could it be emailed in a separate step - that would be good <bertf> there you can steer your car to another kids' screen for example <bertf> randycat: yes, that would be the idea <Richo2> yes, I saw NetMorphs... it's cool <randycat> It was a great year at Squeakfest when we had all the neat things from Japan! <karlram> SeeTroughTalk has some network detection http://swikis.ddo.jp/SeeThroughTalk <bertf> netmorphs have network detection too <karlram> Ok <bertf> So I just saved a morph including a script to a file. works. <bertf> just when loading it, the script is not runnign anymore <bertf> have to cklick the ticker button <Richo2> excelent! then everything works <Richo2> why is it hidden? <bertf> because it's not usable <bertf> it eill not work always <bertf> people will get upset when we advertise a feature that does break more often than it works <karlram> Preferred way is to ublish projects <bertf> karlram: +1 <randycat> It is good in a classroom where there are no firewall issues. <bertf> yes, there broadcast could also work reasonably well <bertf> making it work locally wouldn't be too big an effort <bertf> though still you wouldn't be able to copy everything <bertf> like if you have more complex arrangement of multiple objects. those might break <randycat> I once used Nebraska to give a talk at a conference in NY from VA. It worked well - over 10 years ago. <morphle> Is someone documenting and maintaining the NetMorphs, eeTroughTalk and Nebraska stuff in the image? <bertf> yes, biut the others were only watching <bertf> morphle: no <bertf> we declared nebraska dead. if we ever want to resurrect it, VNC would be a better choice <Richo2> VNC inside Etoys? <morphle> Maybe asigning these things to maintainers would work better than letting it slide <bertf> we have both a VNC client and a server, sure <Richo2> there's so much I don't know... <karlram> We are so few... <morphle> Richo2: it is all documented in the mailing list <bertf> well it's not in Etoys, but many people are using it on their Squeak servers <Richo2> ok, I will look at that <morphle> Yes, I run a few hundred VNC's <bertf> morphle: we're trying to document and maintain Etoys first. As it is now. <morphle> ok <jecel> Matthew is working hard to get Cobalt running on Squeak 4.1 and if that can run in the same image as Etoys it will provide another way of sharing stuff <bertf> this feature discussion is only happenign because we're lucky enough that Richo is working in his GSoC project <morphle> the port is now almost done, it took only a few weeks <bertf> the rest of us is busy just getting another bug fix release out <randycat> Rita: is the book spring this week or next? <bertf> jecel: eventually :) <morphle> Anyone here interested in becoming involved in the effort to use Etoys as the OpenCobalt scripting language <ritaf> randycat: I just realised that I told you in the meeting it would be this week <karlram> Etoys got a lot of inspiration from Alice <bertf> karlram: that's reversing history ... <bertf> but it's true that one of the Alice guys implemented the Wonderland system in Squeak <randycat> Rita: will you email a time? <ritaf> randycat: since I didn't got the meeting notes out in time, only the educators know about this plan. we could also do it next week. Or start tomorrow <randycat> Rita: I will be available to help. <ritaf> randycat: I will do so. we should start, and it would be so geat to have it done by Squeakfest <ritaf> randycat: great, thanks! <randycat> Richo: do you have enough feedback or do you have more questions? <Richo2> no, I'm okay for now <bertf> lots of new durections to explore ... <Richo2> I'm glad lot of stuff still works <bertf> anything else anyone wants to talk about today? <randycat> Richo: can you Skype just a bit after this meeting? <karlram> i'm ok <Richo2> randycat: no, sorry.. I'm not at home right now <randycat> Richo: OK, I will send am email <randycat> Richo: Or we could chat here when everyone is done. <Richo2> ok <bertf> okay. thanks all for a nice chat. you're welcome to stay around, as usual. I'll broadcast the log ... <bertf> and see you next week :) <randycat> hanks Bert <karlram> thanks <ritaf> bye <matmo> bye
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