Right --
Well, the next version of Etoys ... (heh heh) ...
... will make it much much easier to expose new functionality to the children via the Etoys interface. Currently, this is doable, and people do it all the time (especially in Japan, Germany and Spain) but it is not a smooth process and reveals that Etoys started life as a demo and never got re-done as a real system.
The OLPC machine, besides being an impressive result just on its own, is also a strong forcing function for us to expand Etoys to a wider range of users and also to make a better architecture underneath (and these are in progress), Meanwhile, we have to hit the build deadlines of OLPC with the system we have.
However, it would be great to hear from you about the project you actually want to do in Etoys.
Cheers,
Alan
At 11:50 AM 1/23/2007, Steven Greenberg wrote:
On 1/23/07, Alan Kay <mailto:alan.kay@squeakland.orgalan.kay@squeakland.org> wrote: Hi Steven --
What you are trying to do is not Etoys, but to do something in Squeak Smalltalk using one of its graphics systems (called Morphic). Etoys is a UI that rides on top of Squeak Smalltalk. Its objects are called "Players" and the associated graphics of a player is called its "costume". Using Squeak Smalltalk, you can talk to the costume of a player by saying "self costume blah blah", where blah blah is a message that morphs understand.
Hi Alan, thanks for the answer. I think I actually do want EToys because I want my objects to be generically scriptable using tiles. That example I asked about was chosen because it's something I already know how to do in squeak :-). It's not the actual project, just a learning exercise.
Regards, Steve
On 2007 January 23 16:01, Alan Kay wrote:
Right --
Well, the next version of Etoys ... (heh heh) ...
trap for the impatient :)
Alan,
Is it too early to share some details about the architecture (I am wondering whether the new version will be based on Morphic, Tweak or something else, also whether existing projects are planned to be be loadable etc)
Thanks Milan
... will make it much much easier to expose new functionality to the children via the Etoys interface. Currently, this is doable, and people do it all the time (especially in Japan, Germany and Spain) but it is not a smooth process and reveals that Etoys started life as a demo and never got re-done as a real system.
The OLPC machine, besides being an impressive result just on its own, is also a strong forcing function for us to expand Etoys to a wider range of users and also to make a better architecture underneath (and these are in progress), Meanwhile, we have to hit the build deadlines of OLPC with the system we have.
However, it would be great to hear from you about the project you actually want to do in Etoys.
Cheers,
Alan
At 11:50 AM 1/23/2007, Steven Greenberg wrote:
On 1/23/07, Alan Kay <mailto:alan.kay@squeakland.orgalan.kay@squeakland.org> wrote: Hi Steven --
What you are trying to do is not Etoys, but to do something in Squeak Smalltalk using one of its graphics systems (called Morphic). Etoys is a UI that rides on top of Squeak Smalltalk. Its objects are called "Players" and the associated graphics of a player is called its "costume". Using Squeak Smalltalk, you can talk to the costume of a player by saying "self costume blah blah", where blah blah is a message that morphs understand.
Hi Alan, thanks for the answer. I think I actually do want EToys because I want my objects to be generically scriptable using tiles. That example I asked about was chosen because it's something I already know how to do in squeak :-). It's not the actual project, just a learning exercise.
Regards, Steve
Hi Milan --
Yes, it is much too early to talk about the new architecture (we are still thinking). However, it will be along the lines (but quite a bit further) of the WYSIwiki that we did as an experiment last year (and is written up in an excellent paper by Takashi Yamamiya, Yoshiki Ohshima, and Scott Wallace that was just presented at C5 in Kyoto.
Cheers,
Alan
At 11:03 PM 1/24/2007, Milan Zimmermann wrote:
On 2007 January 23 16:01, Alan Kay wrote:
Right --
Well, the next version of Etoys ... (heh heh) ...
trap for the impatient :)
Alan,
Is it too early to share some details about the architecture (I am wondering whether the new version will be based on Morphic, Tweak or something else, also whether existing projects are planned to be be loadable etc)
Thanks Milan
... will make it much much easier to expose new functionality to the children via the Etoys interface. Currently, this is doable, and people do it all the time (especially in Japan, Germany and Spain) but it is not a smooth process and reveals that Etoys started life as a demo and never got re-done as a real system.
The OLPC machine, besides being an impressive result just on its own, is also a strong forcing function for us to expand Etoys to a wider range of users and also to make a better architecture underneath (and these are in progress), Meanwhile, we have to hit the build deadlines of OLPC with the system we have.
However, it would be great to hear from you about the project you actually want to do in Etoys.
Cheers,
Alan
At 11:50 AM 1/23/2007, Steven Greenberg wrote:
On 1/23/07, Alan Kay <mailto:alan.kay@squeakland.orgalan.kay@squeakland.org> wrote: Hi Steven --
What you are trying to do is not Etoys, but to do something in Squeak Smalltalk using one of its graphics systems (called Morphic). Etoys is a UI that rides on top of Squeak Smalltalk. Its objects are called "Players" and the associated graphics of a player is called its "costume". Using Squeak Smalltalk, you can talk to the costume of a player by saying "self costume blah blah", where blah blah is a message that morphs understand.
Hi Alan, thanks for the answer. I think I actually do want EToys because I want my objects to be generically scriptable using tiles. That example I asked about was chosen because it's something I already know how to do in squeak :-). It's not the actual project, just a learning exercise.
Regards, Steve
Etoys mailing list Etoys@laptop.org http://mailman.laptop.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys
Alan Kay wrote:
Hi Milan --
Yes, it is much too early to talk about the new architecture (we are still thinking). However, it will be along the lines (but quite a bit further) of the WYSIwiki that we did as an experiment last year (and is written up in an excellent paper by Takashi Yamamiya, Yoshiki Ohshima, and Scott Wallace that was just presented at C5 in Kyoto.
Alan,
Do you know if the paper is available? (didn't see it on the C5 site) I'd like to read it.
thanks, brad
Hi, Brad, Here is the paper -- Alan may have sent it as well, but better to get twice... All papers will be linked from the site shortly. Kim
At 10:43 AM -0800 1/25/07, Brad Fuller wrote:
Alan Kay wrote:
Hi Milan --
Yes, it is much too early to talk about the new architecture (we are still thinking). However, it will be along the lines (but quite a bit further) of the WYSIwiki that we did as an experiment last year (and is written up in an excellent paper by Takashi Yamamiya, Yoshiki Ohshima, and Scott Wallace that was just presented at C5 in Kyoto.
Alan,
Do you know if the paper is available? (didn't see it on the C5 site) I'd like to read it.
thanks, brad
-- brad fuller www.bradfuller.com _______________________________________________ Etoys mailing list Etoys@laptop.org http://mailman.laptop.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys
Here it is.
Cheers,
Alan
---------
At 10:43 AM 1/25/2007, Brad Fuller wrote:
Alan Kay wrote:
Hi Milan --
Yes, it is much too early to talk about the new architecture (we are still thinking). However, it will be along the lines (but quite a bit further) of the WYSIwiki that we did as an experiment last year (and is written up in an excellent paper by Takashi Yamamiya, Yoshiki Ohshima, and Scott Wallace that was just presented at C5 in Kyoto.
Alan,
Do you know if the paper is available? (didn't see it on the C5 site) I'd like to read it.
thanks, brad
-- brad fuller www.bradfuller.com
Hi all,
I was reading the article and seems that is the answer to a question I made some weeks ago about collaborative multimedia authoring on the squeakland and squeak beginners mailing lists (seems that these days if one want a quick answer on Squeak and Education, this is the place ;-p ).
The people who is enabling teachers on New Technologies and Education (the center is called Ceantic) is making a course with me about Social Software, Learners Networks and Virtual Learning "Objects".
For the first we are using specially Wikis/Blikis,
For the second we want to consolidate a colombian/spanish Squeak community. There are other spanish communities but, as far as I know, they don't have owned/free infrastructure for communication (they depend on google groups, yahoo groups, your-favorite-non-community-corporation groups) with the obligation to have a extra ID and to get undesired publicity just for communication with others in the list. We would like to have our community (with a non sponsored publicity mailing list) and start to interact with other squeakers (language is our first barrier, but we are trying to overpass it, as some of you viewed in the Squeakfest 2006).
For the third the idea is to use Squeak as a medium for the expression of a (academical) community. The idea is not only use it on programming but also y the creation of multimedia content for other classes.
WYSIwiki seems a perfect match and bridge for Software Social (wikis) and multimedia content. I have tried it using the browser plugin from Small-land (I think) and after trying to open documents at http://tinlizzie.org/public/ but after saying that the "image" is going to be actualized then nothing happens. Need I another plugin?
Talking about the plugin I think that the use of Portable Apps could be a solution in places where the installation of the plugins in browsers are restricted. Students can have a USB stick with Firefox portable with the plugin enabled. May be another (silly) possibility is to have some kind of Ajax rendering in the browser of graphical events in the Squeak Plugin... I don't know.
People at Ceantic is not afraid of "thinking bigger" or take risk. So how can we use Tinlizzie in the course at this moment? I will try to install/use and probe at the beginning of the next week... so if Squeakers can answer this soon would be better. We can help testing your platform and even develop it if we learn enough about it.
Hoping your answer,
Offray
Alan Kay escribió:
Here it is.
Cheers,
Alan
At 10:43 AM 1/25/2007, Brad Fuller wrote:
Alan Kay wrote:
Hi Milan --
Yes, it is much too early to talk about the new architecture (we are still thinking). However, it will be along the lines (but quite a bit further) of the WYSIwiki that we did as an experiment last year
(and is
written up in an excellent paper by Takashi Yamamiya, Yoshiki Ohshima, and Scott Wallace that was just presented at C5 in Kyoto.
Alan,
Do you know if the paper is available? (didn't see it on the C5 site) I'd like to read it.
thanks, brad
-- brad fuller www.bradfuller.com
Etoys mailing list Etoys@laptop.org http://mailman.laptop.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys
Hi Alan,
Thanks for the article, very interesting. For the eventual delivery mechanism it would be a great "trojan horse" (in a good sense of course) if the plugin, when not yet installed, could install itself as 1-click on the page, without having to download and install an .exe or .rpm. (That is really not relevant to OLPC because it can come with the system there, but great for rest of browser users).
I played with Tinlizzie a few months ago it was quite captivating, and amazing.
Thanks and later, Milan
On 2007 January 25 12:53, Alan Kay wrote:
Hi Milan --
Yes, it is much too early to talk about the new architecture (we are still thinking). However, it will be along the lines (but quite a bit further) of the WYSIwiki that we did as an experiment last year (and is written up in an excellent paper by Takashi Yamamiya, Yoshiki Ohshima, and Scott Wallace that was just presented at C5 in Kyoto.
Cheers,
Alan
At 11:03 PM 1/24/2007, Milan Zimmermann wrote:
On 2007 January 23 16:01, Alan Kay wrote:
Right --
Well, the next version of Etoys ... (heh heh) ...
trap for the impatient :)
Alan,
Is it too early to share some details about the architecture (I am wondering whether the new version will be based on Morphic, Tweak or something else, also whether existing projects are planned to be be loadable etc)
Thanks Milan
... will make it much much easier to expose new functionality to the children via the Etoys interface. Currently, this is doable, and people do it all the time (especially in Japan, Germany and Spain) but it is not a smooth process and reveals that Etoys started life as a demo and never got re-done as a real system.
The OLPC machine, besides being an impressive result just on its own, is also a strong forcing function for us to expand Etoys to a wider range of users and also to make a better architecture underneath (and these are in progress), Meanwhile, we have to hit the build deadlines of OLPC with the system we have.
However, it would be great to hear from you about the project you actually want to do in Etoys.
Cheers,
Alan
At 11:50 AM 1/23/2007, Steven Greenberg wrote:
On 1/23/07, Alan Kay <mailto:alan.kay@squeakland.orgalan.kay@squeakland.org> wrote: Hi Steven --
What you are trying to do is not Etoys, but to do something in Squeak Smalltalk using one of its graphics systems (called Morphic). Etoys is a UI that rides on top of Squeak Smalltalk. Its objects are called "Players" and the associated graphics of a player is called its "costume". Using Squeak Smalltalk, you can talk to the costume of a player by saying "self costume blah blah", where blah blah is a message that morphs understand.
Hi Alan, thanks for the answer. I think I actually do want EToys because I want my objects to be generically scriptable using tiles. That example I asked about was chosen because it's something I already know how to do in squeak :-). It's not the actual project, just a learning exercise.
Regards, Steve
Etoys mailing list Etoys@laptop.org http://mailman.laptop.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys
Hi Milan --
At 11:07 PM 1/25/2007, Milan Zimmermann wrote:
Hi Alan,
Thanks for the article, very interesting. For the eventual delivery mechanism it would be a great "trojan horse" (in a good sense of course) if the plugin, when not yet installed, could install itself as 1-click on the page, without having to download and install an .exe or .rpm. (That is really not relevant to OLPC because it can come with the system there, but great for rest of browser users).
Unfortunately browsers don't work that way. If JS and DOM were as capable and fast as Squeak this would be easy. But the very reason we have to download an executable plugin to run Squeak/Etoys is that the capabilities of the browser are still lacking. To me, this is a huge problem that needs to be resolved (in part because many American and other school children are prevented from any downloads that involve plugins and/or executables by the sysAdmins of their school district).
Last year, we did do a Logo entirely in the browser JS and DOM to see what could be done. This worked. So the answer is: some things but not enough.
Cheers,
Alan
I played with Tinlizzie a few months ago it was quite captivating, and amazing.
Thanks and later, Milan
On 2007 January 25 12:53, Alan Kay wrote:
Hi Milan --
Yes, it is much too early to talk about the new architecture (we are still thinking). However, it will be along the lines (but quite a bit further) of the WYSIwiki that we did as an experiment last year (and is written up in an excellent paper by Takashi Yamamiya, Yoshiki Ohshima, and Scott Wallace that was just presented at C5 in Kyoto.
Cheers,
Alan
At 11:03 PM 1/24/2007, Milan Zimmermann wrote:
On 2007 January 23 16:01, Alan Kay wrote:
Right --
Well, the next version of Etoys ... (heh heh) ...
trap for the impatient :)
Alan,
Is it too early to share some details about the architecture (I am wondering whether the new version will be based on Morphic, Tweak or something else, also whether existing projects are planned to be be loadable etc)
Thanks Milan
... will make it much much easier to expose new functionality to the children via the Etoys interface. Currently, this is doable, and people do it all the time (especially in Japan, Germany and Spain) but it is not a smooth process and reveals that Etoys started life as a demo and never got re-done as a real system.
The OLPC machine, besides being an impressive result just on its own, is also a strong forcing function for us to expand Etoys to a wider range of users and also to make a better architecture underneath (and these are in progress), Meanwhile, we have to hit the build deadlines of OLPC with the system we have.
However, it would be great to hear from you about the project you actually want to do in Etoys.
Cheers,
Alan
At 11:50 AM 1/23/2007, Steven Greenberg wrote:
On 1/23/07, Alan Kay <mailto:alan.kay@squeakland.orgalan.kay@squeakland.org> wrote: Hi Steven --
What you are trying to do is not Etoys, but to do something in Squeak Smalltalk using one of its graphics systems (called Morphic). Etoys is a UI that rides on top of Squeak Smalltalk. Its objects are called "Players" and the associated graphics of a player is called its "costume". Using Squeak Smalltalk, you can talk to the costume of a player by saying "self costume blah blah", where blah blah is a message that morphs understand.
Hi Alan, thanks for the answer. I think I actually do want EToys because I want my objects to be generically scriptable using tiles. That example I asked about was chosen because it's something I already know how to do in squeak :-). It's not the actual project, just a learning exercise.
Regards, Steve
Etoys mailing list Etoys@laptop.org http://mailman.laptop.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys
Etoys mailing list Etoys@laptop.org http://mailman.laptop.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys
Alan Kay skrev:
Unfortunately browsers don't work that way. If JS and DOM were as capable and fast as Squeak this would be easy. But the very reason we have to download an executable plugin to run Squeak/Etoys is that the capabilities of the browser are still lacking. To me, this is a huge problem that needs to be resolved (in part because many American and other school children are prevented from any downloads that involve plugins and/or executables by the sysAdmins of their school district).
Last year, we did do a Logo entirely in the browser JS and DOM to see what could be done. This worked. So the answer is: some things but not enough.
Here is a page I found on digg: http://bennolan.com/articles/2007/01/24/moon-lander-using-the-canvas-tag
Moon lander written in javascript.
Karl
Yes, eventually they will get there. Right now it is quite difficult to get the DOM and canvas on the three main browsers to be both fast enough and compatible enough. So the difficulty is not doing a moon lander but to do an entire WYSIWYG environment for IDE of Etoys.
Cheers,
Alan
At 07:09 AM 1/26/2007, karl wrote:
Alan Kay skrev:
Unfortunately browsers don't work that way. If JS and DOM were as capable and fast as Squeak this would be easy. But the very reason we have to download an executable plugin to run Squeak/Etoys is that the capabilities of the browser are still lacking. To me, this is a huge problem that needs to be resolved (in part because many American and other school children are prevented from any downloads that involve plugins and/or executables by the sysAdmins of their school district).
Last year, we did do a Logo entirely in the browser JS and DOM to see what could be done. This worked. So the answer is: some things but not enough.
Here is a page I found on digg: http://bennolan.com/articles/2007/01/24/moon-lander-using-the-canvas-tag
Moon lander written in javascript.
Karl _______________________________________________ Etoys mailing list Etoys@laptop.org http://mailman.laptop.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys
Alan Kay skrev:
Unfortunately browsers don't work that way. If JS and DOM were as capable and fast as Squeak this would be easy. But the very reason we have to download an executable plugin to run Squeak/Etoys is that the capabilities of the browser are still lacking. To me, this is a huge problem that needs to be resolved (in part because many American and other school children are prevented from any downloads that involve plugins and/or executables by the sysAdmins of their school district).
Last year, we did do a Logo entirely in the browser JS and DOM to see what could be done. This worked. So the answer is: some things but not enough.
A few years ago I read about a smalltalk like development environment written in javascript, with code browsers etc. The whole project was only like 250 k and opened in a web browser window. I looked quite interesting, but I can't find a link to that project any longer :-(
Karl
This would be interesting to see. But I kind of believe it. What's more difficult is to do what Morphic (or Cairo) can do wrt pretty nice dynamic graphics.
Cheers,
Alan
At 07:23 AM 1/26/2007, karl wrote:
Alan Kay skrev:
Unfortunately browsers don't work that way. If JS and DOM were as capable and fast as Squeak this would be easy. But the very reason we have to download an executable plugin to run Squeak/Etoys is that the capabilities of the browser are still lacking. To me, this is a huge problem that needs to be resolved (in part because many American and other school children are prevented from any downloads that involve plugins and/or executables by the sysAdmins of their school district).
Last year, we did do a Logo entirely in the browser JS and DOM to see what could be done. This worked. So the answer is: some things but not enough.
A few years ago I read about a smalltalk like development environment written in javascript, with code browsers etc. The whole project was only like 250 k and opened in a web browser window. I looked quite interesting, but I can't find a link to that project any longer :-(
Karl _______________________________________________ Etoys mailing list Etoys@laptop.org http://mailman.laptop.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys
On 2007 January 26 09:19, Alan Kay wrote:
Hi Milan --
At 11:07 PM 1/25/2007, Milan Zimmermann wrote:
Hi Alan,
Thanks for the article, very interesting. For the eventual delivery mechanism it would be a great "trojan horse" (in a good sense of course) if the plugin, when not yet installed, could install itself as 1-click on the page, without having to download and install an .exe or .rpm. (That is really not relevant to OLPC because it can come with the system there, but great for rest of browser users).
Unfortunately browsers don't work that way. If JS and DOM were as capable and fast as Squeak this would be easy. But the very reason we have to download an executable plugin to run Squeak/Etoys is that the capabilities of the browser are still lacking.
I was not really advocating not using Squeak I like it :) - just a no-separate-download/1-click install. I guess one way to achieve 1 click (or no click) install of Squeak would be to make vendors ship Squeak with the browser like Java, but that's hard. I thougt there must be another way to achieve 1-click install, I wonder how Flash installs on Windows, it seems to install only with a click without separate download (if the plugin is not originally installed) but I do not know how it's achieved and whether same could be done for Squeak.
To me, this is a huge problem that needs to be resolved (in part because many American and other school children are prevented from any downloads that involve plugins and/or executables by the sysAdmins of their school district).
Also in the industry, so most development is defaulting on what is guaranteed to be "there" - HTML, JS and perhaps Flash lately ... those 3 own the railroads :( but it should not be that way.
Last year, we did do a Logo entirely in the browser JS and DOM to see what could be done. This worked. So the answer is: some things but not enough.
Yes.
Thanks Milan
Cheers,
Alan
I played with Tinlizzie a few months ago it was quite captivating, and amazing.
Thanks and later, Milan
On 2007 January 25 12:53, Alan Kay wrote:
Hi Milan --
Yes, it is much too early to talk about the new architecture (we are still thinking). However, it will be along the lines (but quite a bit further) of the WYSIwiki that we did as an experiment last year (and is written up in an excellent paper by Takashi Yamamiya, Yoshiki Ohshima, and Scott Wallace that was just presented at C5 in Kyoto.
Cheers,
Alan
At 11:03 PM 1/24/2007, Milan Zimmermann wrote:
On 2007 January 23 16:01, Alan Kay wrote:
Right --
Well, the next version of Etoys ... (heh heh) ...
trap for the impatient :)
Alan,
Is it too early to share some details about the architecture (I am wondering whether the new version will be based on Morphic, Tweak or something else, also whether existing projects are planned to be be loadable etc)
Thanks Milan
... will make it much much easier to expose new functionality to the children via the Etoys interface. Currently, this is doable, and people do it all the time (especially in Japan, Germany and Spain) but it is not a smooth process and reveals that Etoys started life as a demo and never got re-done as a real system.
The OLPC machine, besides being an impressive result just on its own, is also a strong forcing function for us to expand Etoys to a wider range of users and also to make a better architecture underneath (and these are in progress), Meanwhile, we have to hit the build deadlines of OLPC with the system we have.
However, it would be great to hear from you about the project you actually want to do in Etoys.
Cheers,
Alan
At 11:50 AM 1/23/2007, Steven Greenberg wrote:
On 1/23/07, Alan Kay <mailto:alan.kay@squeakland.orgalan.kay@squeakland.org> wrote: Hi Steven --
What you are trying to do is not Etoys, but to do something in Squeak Smalltalk using one of its graphics systems (called Morphic). Etoys is a UI that rides on top of Squeak Smalltalk. Its objects are called "Players" and the associated graphics of a player is called its "costume". Using Squeak Smalltalk, you can talk to the costume of a player by saying "self costume blah blah", where blah blah is a message that morphs understand.
Hi Alan, thanks for the answer. I think I actually do want EToys because I want my objects to be generically scriptable using tiles. That example I asked about was chosen because it's something I already know how to do in squeak :-). It's not the actual project, just a learning exercise.
Regards, Steve
Etoys mailing list Etoys@laptop.org http://mailman.laptop.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys
Etoys mailing list Etoys@laptop.org http://mailman.laptop.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys
Milan Zimmermann wrote:
On 2007 January 26 09:19, Alan Kay wrote:
Hi Milan --
At 11:07 PM 1/25/2007, Milan Zimmermann wrote:
Hi Alan,
Thanks for the article, very interesting. For the eventual delivery mechanism it would be a great "trojan horse" (in a good sense of course) if the plugin, when not yet installed, could install itself as 1-click on the page, without having to download and install an .exe or .rpm. (That is really not relevant to OLPC because it can come with the system there, but great for rest of browser users).
Unfortunately browsers don't work that way. If JS and DOM were as capable and fast as Squeak this would be easy. But the very reason we have to download an executable plugin to run Squeak/Etoys is that the capabilities of the browser are still lacking.
I was not really advocating not using Squeak I like it :) - just a no-separate-download/1-click install. I guess one way to achieve 1 click (or no click) install of Squeak would be to make vendors ship Squeak with the browser like Java, but that's hard. I thougt there must be another way to achieve 1-click install, I wonder how Flash installs on Windows, it seems to install only with a click without separate download (if the plugin is not originally installed) but I do not know how it's achieved and whether same could be done for Squeak.
What would be helpful is that if squeak could get on lists like this:
https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/plugins/
This doesn't help that much with school districts ...
Cheers,
Alan
-----------
At 09:47 AM 1/27/2007, Brad Fuller wrote:
Milan Zimmermann wrote:
On 2007 January 26 09:19, Alan Kay wrote:
Hi Milan --
At 11:07 PM 1/25/2007, Milan Zimmermann wrote:
Hi Alan,
Thanks for the article, very interesting. For the eventual delivery mechanism it would be a great "trojan horse" (in a good sense of course) if the plugin, when not yet installed, could install itself as 1-click on the page, without having to download and install an .exe or .rpm. (That is really not relevant to OLPC because it can come with the system there, but great for rest of browser users).
Unfortunately browsers don't work that way. If JS and DOM were as capable and fast as Squeak this would be easy. But the very reason we have to download an executable plugin to run Squeak/Etoys is that the capabilities of the browser are still lacking.
I was not really advocating not using Squeak I like it :) - just a no-separate-download/1-click install. I guess one way to achieve
1 click (or
no click) install of Squeak would be to make vendors ship Squeak with the browser like Java, but that's hard. I thougt there must be another way to achieve 1-click install, I wonder how Flash installs on Windows,
it seems to
install only with a click without separate download (if the plugin is not originally installed) but I do not know how it's achieved and whether same could be done for Squeak.
What would be helpful is that if squeak could get on lists like this:
https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/plugins/
-- brad fuller www.bradfuller.com
Etoys mailing list Etoys@laptop.org http://mailman.laptop.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys
Alan Kay wrote:
This doesn't help that much with school districts ...
I hear you: because plugins are a no-no at most schools.
It seems, though, that making squeak more visible in all areas couldn't hurt. I wonder how hard it is for teachers (etc.) to have the flash plugin updated. They still have to go to the flash site to install/upgrade
On 2007 January 27 12:47, Brad Fuller wrote:
Milan Zimmermann wrote:
I was not really advocating not using Squeak I like it :) - just a no-separate-download/1-click install. I guess one way to achieve 1 click (or no click) install of Squeak would be to make vendors ship Squeak with the browser like Java, but that's hard. I thougt there must be another way to achieve 1-click install, I wonder how Flash installs on Windows, it seems to install only with a click without separate download (if the plugin is not originally installed) but I do not know how it's achieved and whether same could be done for Squeak.
What would be helpful is that if squeak could get on lists like this:
Yes, with the ability to be installed without a download if possible; or being shipped with the browser (but I do not think that is realistic) - either would give penetration equal to that of Firefox (about 20%).
It seems to a way for Squeak (or any other product) to have close to 100% penetration is:
- to hitchhike on one of the existing railroads: - ship with Windows + other major OSes - ship with the browsers (Neither is very realistic)
- to be written in JS or (perhaps) Flash - but if I understand what Alan said, current JS implementations are too slow for the type of stuff application like Squeak needs. It seems to me replacing the JS implementation with a more efficient one does not help, because it could be accepted by Firefox, but how can acceptance by Microsoft be forced.
- There is a third way I think - If Squeak is good enough (and is marketed well) to become an indispensable education tool, is accepted in curriculum, the school sysadmins will install it, the districts and schools will direct them to do so :)
Milan
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