Maybe someone can help with
http://tracker.squeakland.org/browse/SQ-647
This is what led to it:
[23:15:52] <Mitch_Bradley> bertf: ping [23:16:08] <bertf> Mitch_Bradley: pong [23:16:32] <Mitch_Bradley> we are looking at disk-space-saving opportunities [23:16:41] <Mitch_Bradley> I want to ask about etoys possibilities [23:16:53] <bertf> Mitch_Bradley: for 1.5? [23:17:03] <Mitch_Bradley> Could /usr/share/etoys/EtoysV4.sources be compressed? [23:17:07] <Mitch_Bradley> yes, for 1.5 [23:17:41] <bertf> I thought that had larger disk than before? [23:17:48] <Mitch_Bradley> it does [23:18:04] <bertf> can't be compressed easily, no [23:18:13] <Mitch_Bradley> and that fact is being used by *everybody* as a justification for pissing it all away [23:18:26] <bertf> understood [23:18:46] <Mitch_Bradley> under what circumstances is .sources used, as opposed to .image [23:19:17] <bertf> whenever you look at the source code. the image stores file offsets [23:19:22] <Mitch_Bradley> how about decompress-on-first-use? [23:19:33] <bertf> can't write there [23:20:07] <bertf> there was a hack once allowing to compress it. not sure how stable that is [23:22:04] <bertf> I'll try to find that hack [23:23:57] <Mitch_Bradley> how about locales - could we prune /usr/share/etoys/locales ? [23:25:08] <Mitch_Bradley> it is ironic that smalltalk is so large [23:25:44] <Mitch_Bradley> not as ironic as "Micro"soft, though [23:27:33] <bertf> well if you're sure that some locale is not needed, you can just delete the .mo file, yes [23:34:03] <Mitch_Bradley> decompressing EtoysV4.sources.gz to ram takes 0.7 seconds. [23:35:51] <bertf> not bad :)
[00:01:04] <bertf> Mitch_Bradley: I found the sources hack http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/3510 in what time frame would we have to incorporate that? [00:02:36] <Mitch_Bradley> bertf: I don't know what our current release train looks like, but I think that we would probably want to fold in the space-saving change whenever it is available. [00:03:05] <bertf> Mitch_Bradley: when would it be too late? [00:03:32] <cjb> bertf: within 7 days should be ok [00:04:41] <bertf> cjb: okay. can't promise anything but I'll see what I can do. or get someone to do. [00:04:49] <Mitch_Bradley> thanks!
- Bert -
What about using Smalltalk abandonSources as Eliot suggested on squeak-dev? I just tried with and etoys-dev image and it complained about a syntax error in MMetaParser>>mExpr so I blindly removed the whole package and tried again. It finished without errors and the image seems to be working ok.
On Wed, Jan 13, 2010 at 9:24 PM, Bert Freudenberg bert@freudenbergs.dewrote:
Maybe someone can help with
http://tracker.squeakland.org/browse/SQ-647
This is what led to it:
[23:15:52] <Mitch_Bradley> bertf: ping [23:16:08] <bertf> Mitch_Bradley: pong [23:16:32] <Mitch_Bradley> we are looking at disk-space-saving opportunities [23:16:41] <Mitch_Bradley> I want to ask about etoys possibilities [23:16:53] <bertf> Mitch_Bradley: for 1.5? [23:17:03] <Mitch_Bradley> Could /usr/share/etoys/EtoysV4.sources be compressed? [23:17:07] <Mitch_Bradley> yes, for 1.5 [23:17:41] <bertf> I thought that had larger disk than before? [23:17:48] <Mitch_Bradley> it does [23:18:04] <bertf> can't be compressed easily, no [23:18:13] <Mitch_Bradley> and that fact is being used by *everybody* as a justification for pissing it all away [23:18:26] <bertf> understood [23:18:46] <Mitch_Bradley> under what circumstances is .sources used, as opposed to .image [23:19:17] <bertf> whenever you look at the source code. the image stores file offsets [23:19:22] <Mitch_Bradley> how about decompress-on-first-use? [23:19:33] <bertf> can't write there [23:20:07] <bertf> there was a hack once allowing to compress it. not sure how stable that is [23:22:04] <bertf> I'll try to find that hack [23:23:57] <Mitch_Bradley> how about locales - could we prune /usr/share/etoys/locales ? [23:25:08] <Mitch_Bradley> it is ironic that smalltalk is so large [23:25:44] <Mitch_Bradley> not as ironic as "Micro"soft, though [23:27:33] <bertf> well if you're sure that some locale is not needed, you can just delete the .mo file, yes [23:34:03] <Mitch_Bradley> decompressing EtoysV4.sources.gz to ram takes 0.7 seconds. [23:35:51] <bertf> not bad :)
[00:01:04] <bertf> Mitch_Bradley: I found the sources hack http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/3510 in what time frame would we have to incorporate that? [00:02:36] <Mitch_Bradley> bertf: I don't know what our current release train looks like, but I think that we would probably want to fold in the space-saving change whenever it is available. [00:03:05] <bertf> Mitch_Bradley: when would it be too late? [00:03:32] <cjb> bertf: within 7 days should be ok [00:04:41] <bertf> cjb: okay. can't promise anything but I'll see what I can do. or get someone to do. [00:04:49] <Mitch_Bradley> thanks!
- Bert -
etoys-dev mailing list etoys-dev@squeakland.org http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys-dev
Why the .sourche and .change files are need in the shipped Etoys ? Should it not be in etoys-dev only? Hilaire
2010/1/14 Ricardo Moran richi.moran@gmail.com
What about using Smalltalk abandonSources as Eliot suggested on squeak-dev? I just tried with and etoys-dev image and it complained about a syntax error in MMetaParser>>mExpr so I blindly removed the whole package and tried again. It finished without errors and the image seems to be working ok.
On Wed, Jan 13, 2010 at 9:24 PM, Bert Freudenberg bert@freudenbergs.dewrote:
Maybe someone can help with
http://tracker.squeakland.org/browse/SQ-647
This is what led to it:
[23:15:52] <Mitch_Bradley> bertf: ping [23:16:08] <bertf> Mitch_Bradley: pong [23:16:32] <Mitch_Bradley> we are looking at disk-space-saving opportunities [23:16:41] <Mitch_Bradley> I want to ask about etoys possibilities [23:16:53] <bertf> Mitch_Bradley: for 1.5? [23:17:03] <Mitch_Bradley> Could /usr/share/etoys/EtoysV4.sources be compressed? [23:17:07] <Mitch_Bradley> yes, for 1.5 [23:17:41] <bertf> I thought that had larger disk than before? [23:17:48] <Mitch_Bradley> it does [23:18:04] <bertf> can't be compressed easily, no [23:18:13] <Mitch_Bradley> and that fact is being used by *everybody* as a justification for pissing it all away [23:18:26] <bertf> understood [23:18:46] <Mitch_Bradley> under what circumstances is .sources used, as opposed to .image [23:19:17] <bertf> whenever you look at the source code. the image stores file offsets [23:19:22] <Mitch_Bradley> how about decompress-on-first-use? [23:19:33] <bertf> can't write there [23:20:07] <bertf> there was a hack once allowing to compress it. not sure how stable that is [23:22:04] <bertf> I'll try to find that hack [23:23:57] <Mitch_Bradley> how about locales - could we prune /usr/share/etoys/locales ? [23:25:08] <Mitch_Bradley> it is ironic that smalltalk is so large [23:25:44] <Mitch_Bradley> not as ironic as "Micro"soft, though [23:27:33] <bertf> well if you're sure that some locale is not needed, you can just delete the .mo file, yes [23:34:03] <Mitch_Bradley> decompressing EtoysV4.sources.gz to ram takes 0.7 seconds. [23:35:51] <bertf> not bad :)
[00:01:04] <bertf> Mitch_Bradley: I found the sources hack http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/3510 in what time frame would we have to incorporate that? [00:02:36] <Mitch_Bradley> bertf: I don't know what our current release train looks like, but I think that we would probably want to fold in the space-saving change whenever it is available. [00:03:05] <bertf> Mitch_Bradley: when would it be too late? [00:03:32] <cjb> bertf: within 7 days should be ok [00:04:41] <bertf> cjb: okay. can't promise anything but I'll see what I can do. or get someone to do. [00:04:49] <Mitch_Bradley> thanks!
- Bert -
etoys-dev mailing list etoys-dev@squeakland.org http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys-dev
etoys-dev mailing list etoys-dev@squeakland.org http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys-dev
On Thu, Jan 14, 2010 at 3:59 PM, Hilaire Fernandes hilaire.fernandes@edu.ge.ch wrote:
Why the .sourche and .change files are need in the shipped Etoys ? Should it not be in etoys-dev only?
Generally those are NOT needed for run-time purpose. Those are needed on Sugar/OLPC platform so that kids can browse and review code (show source functionality, that is one of of the core features of OLPC) .
/Korakurider
Hilaire
2010/1/14 Ricardo Moran richi.moran@gmail.com
What about using Smalltalk abandonSources as Eliot suggested on squeak-dev? I just tried with and etoys-dev image and it complained about a syntax error in MMetaParser>>mExpr so I blindly removed the whole package and tried again. It finished without errors and the image seems to be working ok.
On Wed, Jan 13, 2010 at 9:24 PM, Bert Freudenberg bert@freudenbergs.de wrote:
Maybe someone can help with
http://tracker.squeakland.org/browse/SQ-647
This is what led to it:
[23:15:52] <Mitch_Bradley> bertf: ping [23:16:08] <bertf> Mitch_Bradley: pong [23:16:32] <Mitch_Bradley> we are looking at disk-space-saving opportunities [23:16:41] <Mitch_Bradley> I want to ask about etoys possibilities [23:16:53] <bertf> Mitch_Bradley: for 1.5? [23:17:03] <Mitch_Bradley> Could /usr/share/etoys/EtoysV4.sources be compressed? [23:17:07] <Mitch_Bradley> yes, for 1.5 [23:17:41] <bertf> I thought that had larger disk than before? [23:17:48] <Mitch_Bradley> it does [23:18:04] <bertf> can't be compressed easily, no [23:18:13] <Mitch_Bradley> and that fact is being used by *everybody* as a justification for pissing it all away [23:18:26] <bertf> understood [23:18:46] <Mitch_Bradley> under what circumstances is .sources used, as opposed to .image [23:19:17] <bertf> whenever you look at the source code. the image stores file offsets [23:19:22] <Mitch_Bradley> how about decompress-on-first-use? [23:19:33] <bertf> can't write there [23:20:07] <bertf> there was a hack once allowing to compress it. not sure how stable that is [23:22:04] <bertf> I'll try to find that hack [23:23:57] <Mitch_Bradley> how about locales - could we prune /usr/share/etoys/locales ? [23:25:08] <Mitch_Bradley> it is ironic that smalltalk is so large [23:25:44] <Mitch_Bradley> not as ironic as "Micro"soft, though [23:27:33] <bertf> well if you're sure that some locale is not needed, you can just delete the .mo file, yes [23:34:03] <Mitch_Bradley> decompressing EtoysV4.sources.gz to ram takes 0.7 seconds. [23:35:51] <bertf> not bad :)
[00:01:04] <bertf> Mitch_Bradley: I found the sources hack http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/3510 in what time frame would we have to incorporate that? [00:02:36] <Mitch_Bradley> bertf: I don't know what our current release train looks like, but I think that we would probably want to fold in the space-saving change whenever it is available. [00:03:05] <bertf> Mitch_Bradley: when would it be too late? [00:03:32] <cjb> bertf: within 7 days should be ok [00:04:41] <bertf> cjb: okay. can't promise anything but I'll see what I can do. or get someone to do. [00:04:49] <Mitch_Bradley> thanks!
- Bert -
etoys-dev mailing list etoys-dev@squeakland.org http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys-dev
etoys-dev mailing list etoys-dev@squeakland.org http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys-dev
-- http://blog.ofset.org/hilaire
etoys-dev mailing list etoys-dev@squeakland.org http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys-dev
I know the use of those files. The question is: is it useful, especially when you consider how unfriendly is the developer tools in Etoys used under the XO machine (font site, bare bone browser without syntax coloring or completion).
Just taking a pragmatical point of view.
Hilaire
2010/1/14 Korakurider korakurider@gmail.com
On Thu, Jan 14, 2010 at 3:59 PM, Hilaire Fernandes hilaire.fernandes@edu.ge.ch wrote:
Why the .sourche and .change files are need in the shipped Etoys ? Should it not be in etoys-dev only?
Generally those are NOT needed for run-time purpose.Those are needed on Sugar/OLPC platform so that kids can browse and review code (show source functionality, that is one of of the core features of OLPC) .
/Korakurider
Hilaire
2010/1/14 Ricardo Moran richi.moran@gmail.com
What about using Smalltalk abandonSources as Eliot suggested on squeak-dev? I just tried with and etoys-dev image and it complained about a syntax error in MMetaParser>>mExpr so I blindly removed the whole package and
tried
again. It finished without errors and the image seems to be working ok.
On Wed, Jan 13, 2010 at 9:24 PM, Bert Freudenberg <bert@freudenbergs.de
wrote:
Maybe someone can help with
http://tracker.squeakland.org/browse/SQ-647
This is what led to it:
[23:15:52] <Mitch_Bradley> bertf: ping [23:16:08] <bertf> Mitch_Bradley: pong [23:16:32] <Mitch_Bradley> we are looking at disk-space-saving opportunities [23:16:41] <Mitch_Bradley> I want to ask about etoys possibilities [23:16:53] <bertf> Mitch_Bradley: for 1.5? [23:17:03] <Mitch_Bradley> Could /usr/share/etoys/EtoysV4.sources be compressed? [23:17:07] <Mitch_Bradley> yes, for 1.5 [23:17:41] <bertf> I thought that had larger disk than before? [23:17:48] <Mitch_Bradley> it does [23:18:04] <bertf> can't be compressed easily, no [23:18:13] <Mitch_Bradley> and that fact is being used by *everybody*
as
a justification for pissing it all away [23:18:26] <bertf> understood [23:18:46] <Mitch_Bradley> under what circumstances is .sources used,
as
opposed to .image [23:19:17] <bertf> whenever you look at the source code. the image
stores
file offsets [23:19:22] <Mitch_Bradley> how about decompress-on-first-use? [23:19:33] <bertf> can't write there [23:20:07] <bertf> there was a hack once allowing to compress it. not sure how stable that is [23:22:04] <bertf> I'll try to find that hack [23:23:57] <Mitch_Bradley> how about locales - could we prune /usr/share/etoys/locales ? [23:25:08] <Mitch_Bradley> it is ironic that smalltalk is so large [23:25:44] <Mitch_Bradley> not as ironic as "Micro"soft, though [23:27:33] <bertf> well if you're sure that some locale is not needed, you can just delete the .mo file, yes [23:34:03] <Mitch_Bradley> decompressing EtoysV4.sources.gz to ram
takes
0.7 seconds. [23:35:51] <bertf> not bad :)
[00:01:04] <bertf> Mitch_Bradley: I found the sources hack http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/3510 in what time frame would we have to incorporate that? [00:02:36] <Mitch_Bradley> bertf: I don't know what our current release train looks like, but I think that we would probably want to fold in
the
space-saving change whenever it is available. [00:03:05] <bertf> Mitch_Bradley: when would it be too late? [00:03:32] <cjb> bertf: within 7 days should be ok [00:04:41] <bertf> cjb: okay. can't promise anything but I'll see what
I
can do. or get someone to do. [00:04:49] <Mitch_Bradley> thanks!
- Bert -
etoys-dev mailing list etoys-dev@squeakland.org http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys-dev
etoys-dev mailing list etoys-dev@squeakland.org http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys-dev
-- http://blog.ofset.org/hilaire
etoys-dev mailing list etoys-dev@squeakland.org http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys-dev
On 14.01.2010, at 13:15, Hilaire Fernandes wrote:
I know the use of those files. The question is: is it useful, especially when you consider how unfriendly is the developer tools in Etoys used under the XO machine (font site, bare bone browser without syntax coloring or completion).
Why do you think that can't be fixed?
- Bert -
Just taking a pragmatical point of view.
Hilaire
2010/1/14 Korakurider korakurider@gmail.com On Thu, Jan 14, 2010 at 3:59 PM, Hilaire Fernandes hilaire.fernandes@edu.ge.ch wrote:
Why the .sourche and .change files are need in the shipped Etoys ? Should it not be in etoys-dev only?
Generally those are NOT needed for run-time purpose. Those are needed on Sugar/OLPC platform so that kids can browse and review code (show source functionality, that is one of of the core features of OLPC) .
/Korakurider
2010/1/14 Bert Freudenberg bert@freudenbergs.de
On 14.01.2010, at 13:15, Hilaire Fernandes wrote:
I know the use of those files. The question is: is it useful, especially when you consider how unfriendly is the developer tools in Etoys used under the XO machine (font site, bare bone browser without syntax coloring or completion).
Why do you think that can't be fixed?
Will it be? Anyway, I don't care much about this issue, I just remember Squeakland being release without sources files for years. Now XO bundle come with sources but it is merely unsuable for the end user and XO team ask for smaller size...
Hilaire
On 15.01.2010, at 13:47, Hilaire Fernandes wrote:
2010/1/14 Bert Freudenberg bert@freudenbergs.de On 14.01.2010, at 13:15, Hilaire Fernandes wrote:
I know the use of those files. The question is: is it useful, especially when you consider how unfriendly is the developer tools in Etoys used under the XO machine (font site, bare bone browser without syntax coloring or completion).
Why do you think that can't be fixed?
Will it be?
Why not? E.g., font size has been fixed in browsers already.
Anyway, I don't care much about this issue, I just remember Squeakland being release without sources files for years. Now XO bundle come with sources but it is merely unsuable for the end user and XO team ask for smaller size...
I don't think it's unusable even as-is. In fact, I made almost all of the patches after 4.0.2336 coding directly on the XO.
Remember this is a learning machine, and most of the kids won't have access to a different machine for a long time. Reading the source code in its original form, with comments and formatting preserved is much better than looking at decompiled code. We don't want to give them a "magic black box" but something they can disassemble and learn from.
Besides, this patch reduces the disk space for the sources from 18 MB to 4.5 MB without any loss of functionality. Kudos to Dan!
- Bert -
On Jan 15, 2010, at 2:15 PM, Bert Freudenberg wrote:
On 15.01.2010, at 13:47, Hilaire Fernandes wrote:
2010/1/14 Bert Freudenberg bert@freudenbergs.de On 14.01.2010, at 13:15, Hilaire Fernandes wrote:
I know the use of those files. The question is: is it useful, especially when you consider how unfriendly is the developer tools in Etoys used under the XO machine (font site, bare bone browser without syntax coloring or completion).
Why do you think that can't be fixed?
Will it be?
Why not? E.g., font size has been fixed in browsers already.
Anyway, I don't care much about this issue, I just remember Squeakland being release without sources files for years. Now XO bundle come with sources but it is merely unsuable for the end user and XO team ask for smaller size...
I don't think it's unusable even as-is. In fact, I made almost all of the patches after 4.0.2336 coding directly on the XO.
Remember this is a learning machine, and most of the kids won't have access to a different machine for a long time. Reading the source code in its original form, with comments and formatting preserved is much better than looking at decompiled code. We don't want to give them a "magic black box" but something they can disassemble and learn from.
I strongly second that. With Etoys on the XO, I expect more children/teachers are going further and deeper into Etoys and Squeak. It is one of my goals for Squeakland to make this easier. There already is the option to show the source code of a script. And then you need to find exactly that sourcecode in your system.
Greetings, Rita
Besides, this patch reduces the disk space for the sources from 18 MB to 4.5 MB without any loss of functionality. Kudos to Dan!
- Bert -
etoys-dev mailing list etoys-dev@squeakland.org http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys-dev
Rita Freudenberg a écrit :
Remember this is a learning machine, and most of the kids won't have access to a different machine for a long time. Reading the source code in its original form, with comments and formatting preserved is much better than looking at decompiled code. We don't want to give them a "magic black box" but something they can disassemble and learn from.
I strongly second that. With Etoys on the XO, I expect more children/teachers are going further and deeper into Etoys and Squeak. It is one of my goals for Squeakland to make this easier. There already is the option to show the source code of a script. And then you need to find exactly that sourcecode in your system.
Sure I know this argument, I even use it or experienced it many years ago with Free Software, but if the target is the kid, this is purely anedoctical. In that case, kids *may* have a better chance to learn something about programming with the Python environment or something in the line of BotsInc. But even in these conditions your are only targeting a very tiny fraction of the kids.
Hilaire
Am 15.01.2010 um 20:22 schrieb Hilaire Fernandes:
Rita Freudenberg a écrit :
Remember this is a learning machine, and most of the kids won't have access to a different machine for a long time. Reading the source code in its original form, with comments and formatting preserved is much better than looking at decompiled code. We don't want to give them a "magic black box" but something they can disassemble and learn from.
I strongly second that. With Etoys on the XO, I expect more children/teachers are going further and deeper into Etoys and Squeak. It is one of my goals for Squeakland to make this easier. There already is the option to show the source code of a script. And then you need to find exactly that sourcecode in your system.
Sure I know this argument, I even use it or experienced it many years ago with Free Software, but if the target is the kid, this is purely anedoctical. In that case, kids *may* have a better chance to learn something about programming with the Python environment or something in the line of BotsInc. But even in these conditions your are only targeting a very tiny fraction of the kids.
Yes, that's true, this will not address the majority of XO users (kids) yet. But it will be useful for older students and for developers, who are using the XO for development. I think when we remove these files yet, it will be much harder to put them in again later. And I'm thinking in longer terms, years from now, when these kids might want to extend their etoys projects using Squeak. I know, this *can* happen, I'm not sure it actually *will* happen. But I will leave the door open. Bert did already compress the file-size :)
Rita
Hilaire
Rita Freudenberg rita@isg.cs.uni-magdeburg.de
On 14.01.2010, at 08:31, Korakurider wrote:
On Thu, Jan 14, 2010 at 3:59 PM, Hilaire Fernandes hilaire.fernandes@edu.ge.ch wrote:
Why the .sourche and .change files are need in the shipped Etoys ? Should it not be in etoys-dev only?
Generally those are NOT needed for run-time purpose. Those are needed on Sugar/OLPC platform so that kids can browse and review code (show source functionality, that is one of of the core features of OLPC) .
/Korakurider
Precisely.
I attached a fix there, please test and comment / approve.
The original 18765396 bytes are compressed to 4710015 bytes now. That's down to 25% as Dan advertised, very nice.
- Bert -
etoys-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org
-
Bert Freudenberg -
Hilaire Fernandes -
Korakurider -
Ricardo Moran -
Rita Freudenberg