On an XO with the latest build,
Whenever I click either of the right buttons at top ( "Keep a current project" or "Stop and Quit Etoys"), I get the graph paper effect and the jumping jacks "saving" effect, both of which indicate that something is saving.
My assumption is that the former saves the current project and the latter saves the image.
Neither are true, or so it seems ... when I reload Etoys, the image hasn't changed, and there's no apparent way to load a project.
So squeak bump #2 is "where did my work go?!?"
While on the subject, it's a bit of a pain to always save when you quit, even if you did nothing new.
On Oct 4, 2007, at 20:06 , Timothy Falconer wrote:
On an XO with the latest build,
Whenever I click either of the right buttons at top ( "Keep a current project" or "Stop and Quit Etoys"), I get the graph paper effect and the jumping jacks "saving" effect, both of which indicate that something is saving.
My assumption is that the former saves the current project and the latter saves the image.
Not at all. But you need to understand that there are no files in Sugar. Instead, you "keep" activity instances in the Journal. So the concept of save and load does not exist.
You launch an instance of an activity such as Etoys, and you can stop it, which saves a snapshot in the Journal, which you can resume later. All the activities you did are recorded in the Journal. Also, you can take an additional snapshot of the activity using the "keep" button, which gets you a second entry in the journal so you can keep a specific state of your work explicitely.
Neither are true, or so it seems ... when I reload Etoys, the image hasn't changed, and there's no apparent way to load a project.
When you launch Etoys from the frame, it runs a fresh "instance". If you want to resume a previous "instance", do so from the Journal.
So squeak bump #2 is "where did my work go?!?"
To the Journal.
While on the subject, it's a bit of a pain to always save when you quit, even if you did nothing new.
Agreed. But the Sugar design relies on it. And once versioning is implemented for the Journal this may even become usable - at least that's what the Sugar UI designer assumes.
- Bert -
Okay, I understand the XO Journal thing better (though I might not personally agree with it :)
This still begs the question ... how does the non-XO world open a project. Dragging and dropping from the file system means that people need to know how to find their files :)
Is it possible to show a "load" menu icon when the image is being run on a non-XO?
On Oct 4, 2007, at 4:27 PM, Bert Freudenberg wrote:
On Oct 4, 2007, at 20:06 , Timothy Falconer wrote:
On an XO with the latest build,
Whenever I click either of the right buttons at top ( "Keep a current project" or "Stop and Quit Etoys"), I get the graph paper effect and the jumping jacks "saving" effect, both of which indicate that something is saving.
My assumption is that the former saves the current project and the latter saves the image.
Not at all. But you need to understand that there are no files in Sugar. Instead, you "keep" activity instances in the Journal. So the concept of save and load does not exist.
You launch an instance of an activity such as Etoys, and you can stop it, which saves a snapshot in the Journal, which you can resume later. All the activities you did are recorded in the Journal. Also, you can take an additional snapshot of the activity using the "keep" button, which gets you a second entry in the journal so you can keep a specific state of your work explicitely.
Neither are true, or so it seems ... when I reload Etoys, the image hasn't changed, and there's no apparent way to load a project.
When you launch Etoys from the frame, it runs a fresh "instance". If you want to resume a previous "instance", do so from the Journal.
So squeak bump #2 is "where did my work go?!?"
To the Journal.
While on the subject, it's a bit of a pain to always save when you quit, even if you did nothing new.
Agreed. But the Sugar design relies on it. And once versioning is implemented for the Journal this may even become usable - at least that's what the Sugar UI designer assumes.
- Bert -
Hi, Tim,
Okay, I understand the XO Journal thing better (though I might not personally agree with it :)
Current implementation is missing some important features and hard to use. The fundamental idea can be great, I think. (Alan mentioned that Engelbert's NLS had the idea, too.) Hierarachical file system is some implementation detail to be hidden and being able to keep all versions (which is missing from current Journal) would be great.
This still begs the question ... how does the non-XO world open a project. Dragging and dropping from the file system means that people need to know how to find their files :)
Is it possible to show a "load" menu icon when the image is being run on a non-XO?
Yes, this is the idea. on a non-XO environment, we will show conventional file dialog. If you trace back the code for a few month, you'll see that we used to show "conventional" (though redesigned) file dialog.
-- Yoshiki
On Oct 5, 2007, at 5:26 , Yoshiki Ohshima wrote:
Hi, Tim,
Okay, I understand the XO Journal thing better (though I might not personally agree with it :)
Current implementation is missing some important features and hard to use. The fundamental idea can be great, I think. (Alan mentioned that Engelbert's NLS had the idea, too.) Hierarachical file system is some implementation detail to be hidden and being able to keep all versions (which is missing from current Journal) would be great.
This still begs the question ... how does the non-XO world open a project. Dragging and dropping from the file system means that people need to know how to find their files :)
Is it possible to show a "load" menu icon when the image is being run on a non-XO?
Yes, this is the idea. on a non-XO environment, we will show conventional file dialog. If you trace back the code for a few month, you'll see that we used to show "conventional" (though redesigned) file dialog.
As I wrote previously, use the classic navigator outside OLPC.
Press Alt-Shift-W to bring up the world menu (I really think we should not hide this as much). Pin it down using the top-right button for further use.
Select "flaps..." - "destroy all shared flaps", then "install classic etoy flaps".
- Bert -
Bert Freudenberg wrote:
Press Alt-Shift-W to bring up the world menu (I really think we should not hide this as much).
I was thinking that a nice way to get from eToys to Smalltalk would be to have some project with the class browser and other tools already open, plus some text explaining things and linking to more tutorials.
Are preferences associated with the image or can each project have its own variations? In the latter case the world menu could be enabled in this particular "down the rabbit hole" project.
-- Jecel
We have the View Source key available as well, which hopefully will be used across the entire Sugar interface.
-walter
On 10/5/07, Jecel Assumpcao Jr jecel@merlintec.com wrote:
Bert Freudenberg wrote:
Press Alt-Shift-W to bring up the world menu (I really think we should not hide this as much).
I was thinking that a nice way to get from eToys to Smalltalk would be to have some project with the class browser and other tools already open, plus some text explaining things and linking to more tutorials.
Are preferences associated with the image or can each project have its own variations? In the latter case the world menu could be enabled in this particular "down the rabbit hole" project.
-- Jecel _______________________________________________ Etoys mailing list Etoys@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/etoys
Stephane Ducasse's BotsInc is a nice micro smalltalk environment and does not expose the whole class library at once. You get to do text editing, use a limited browser, see the debugger etc Karl
Walter Bender wrote:
We have the View Source key available as well, which hopefully will be used across the entire Sugar interface.
-walter
On 10/5/07, *Jecel Assumpcao Jr * <jecel@merlintec.com mailto:jecel@merlintec.com> wrote:
Bert Freudenberg wrote: > Press Alt-Shift-W to bring up the world menu (I really think we > should not hide this as much). I was thinking that a nice way to get from eToys to Smalltalk would be to have some project with the class browser and other tools already open, plus some text explaining things and linking to more tutorials. Are preferences associated with the image or can each project have its own variations? In the latter case the world menu could be enabled in this particular "down the rabbit hole" project. -- Jecel _______________________________________________ Etoys mailing list Etoys@lists.laptop.org <mailto:Etoys@lists.laptop.org> http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/etoys-- Walter Bender One Laptop per Child http://laptop.org http://laptop.org
Etoys mailing list Etoys@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/etoys
I've not played with it, but I wonder if something like that, set up in a manner akin to Pippy for Python, could be a nice bridge between Etoys and a general purpuse SmallTalk. Hitting View Source inside of Etoys could launch a Botsinc session?
-walter
On 10/8/07, karl karl.ramberg@comhem.se wrote:
Stephane Ducasse's BotsInc is a nice micro smalltalk environment and does not expose the whole class library at once. You get to do text editing, use a limited browser, see the debugger etc Karl
Walter Bender wrote:
We have the View Source key available as well, which hopefully will be used across the entire Sugar interface.
-walter
On 10/5/07, *Jecel Assumpcao Jr * <jecel@merlintec.com mailto:jecel@merlintec.com> wrote:
Bert Freudenberg wrote: > Press Alt-Shift-W to bring up the world menu (I really think we > should not hide this as much). I was thinking that a nice way to get from eToys to Smalltalk wouldbe
to have some project with the class browser and other tools already open, plus some text explaining things and linking to moretutorials.
Are preferences associated with the image or can each project haveits
own variations? In the latter case the world menu could be enabledin
this particular "down the rabbit hole" project. -- Jecel _______________________________________________ Etoys mailing list Etoys@lists.laptop.org <mailto:Etoys@lists.laptop.org> http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/etoys-- Walter Bender One Laptop per Child http://laptop.org http://laptop.org
Etoys mailing list Etoys@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/etoys
Walter Bender wrote on Mon, 8 Oct 2007 15:08:20 -0400
I've not played with it, but I wonder if something like that, set up in a manner akin to Pippy for Python, could be a nice bridge between Etoys and a general purpuse SmallTalk. Hitting View Source inside of Etoys could launch a Botsinc session?
On the other hand, it also makes sense for "view source" to work at the eToys level. You can point to some object and see the tiled scripts associated with it. Though there is already an eToys-only way of doing this (call up the halo for the object, press the "eye" button), it would be nice to bind the key to this operation since it would be used far more frequently than a "let's go deeper" command.
On 10/8/07, karl wrote: Stephane Ducasse's BotsInc is a nice micro smalltalk environment and does not expose the whole class library at once. You get to do text editing, use a limited browser, see the debugger etc
This is a very important thing to have. Even though Adele Goldberg's LearningWorks tool was created for adults (which are much more timid about exploring things than children), such an environment can avoid many initial frustrations (raw Smalltalk is a bit like running your apps in the kernel mode instead of the user mode).
-- Jecel
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
Hi all,
I have being using Squeak/Smalltalk for my course of introduction to Informatics and the way we go is from Etoys to BotsInc to Smalltalk and is a nice working bridge. We're still not exploring deeply Smalltalk, but with the Book Squeak By Example, I think that we can made this in a second course in the future without any problem. The nice thing about Etoys -> Bots Inc. -> Smalltalk is that you get a metaphor that shows the students different degrees of complexity as they learn keeping things consistent in some way.
For this semester I'm thinking in something like "dramabotics"... a way to use Bots Inc mixed with Etoys for storytelling on local folklore as an attempt to mix narration and programming and making bridges between ways to think and ways to "make and express culture". We know about experiences using Squeak for making young people to learn about "universal" concepts of Science and Technology, but it would be nice to use this metamedium also for making young people to learn about "local" things on folklore. Making bridges between Science, Technology and Folklore and knowing the limits on how them affect, talk and explain the world is important in keeping a cultural rich and diverse environment.
Today I will meet my students and tell about the idea for our final project, having already covered the basic Etoys and Bots Inc themes. I will ask in this list what is needed in Bots Inc Environment to make "dramabotics" work as we made progress in the classroom.
Cheers,
Offray
Jecel Assumpcao Jr wrote:
Walter Bender wrote on Mon, 8 Oct 2007 15:08:20 -0400
I've not played with it, but I wonder if something like that, set up in a manner akin to Pippy for Python, could be a nice bridge between Etoys and a general purpuse SmallTalk. Hitting View Source inside of Etoys could launch a Botsinc session?
On the other hand, it also makes sense for "view source" to work at the eToys level. You can point to some object and see the tiled scripts associated with it. Though there is already an eToys-only way of doing this (call up the halo for the object, press the "eye" button), it would be nice to bind the key to this operation since it would be used far more frequently than a "let's go deeper" command.
On 10/8/07, karl wrote: Stephane Ducasse's BotsInc is a nice micro smalltalk environment and does not expose the whole class library at once. You get to do text editing, use a limited browser, see the debugger etc
This is a very important thing to have. Even though Adele Goldberg's LearningWorks tool was created for adults (which are much more timid about exploring things than children), such an environment can avoid many initial frustrations (raw Smalltalk is a bit like running your apps in the kernel mode instead of the user mode).
-- Jecel _______________________________________________ Etoys mailing list Etoys@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/etoys
Offray,
We're using the same approach in Project Waveplace, using storytelling as the end goal with math & programming along the way. (Much as Alice and Scratch did).
Our chief reason for the storytelling approach is to help with buy-in for the educational approach, for both the kids and the adults. It's also a way to get the kids talking to adults about their shared history.
At the end we'll have a musical celebration where the kids show off their folklore projects, which we hope will make more of a connection with the community than math/science examples might.
It also helps that the Caribbean has a strong storytelling tradition, much as other cultures (though less and less American culture).
Thanks, Tim
On Oct 8, 2007, at 9:41 PM, Offray Vladimir Luna Cardenas wrote:
For this semester I'm thinking in something like "dramabotics"... a way to use Bots Inc mixed with Etoys for storytelling on local folklore as an attempt to mix narration and programming and making bridges between ways to think and ways to "make and express culture". We know about experiences using Squeak for making young people to learn about "universal" concepts of Science and Technology, but it would be nice to use this metamedium also for making young people to learn about "local" things on folklore. Making bridges between Science, Technology and Folklore and knowing the limits on how them affect, talk and explain the world is important in keeping a cultural rich and diverse environment.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
Hi Timothy,
Timothy Falconer wrote:
Offray,
We're using the same approach in Project Waveplace, using storytelling as the end goal with math & programming along the way. (Much as Alice and Scratch did).
Interesting. Could you give me an url for the project?
Our chief reason for the storytelling approach is to help with buy-in for the educational approach, for both the kids and the adults. It's also a way to get the kids talking to adults about their shared history.
At the end we'll have a musical celebration where the kids show off their folklore projects, which we hope will make more of a connection with the community than math/science examples might.
It also helps that the Caribbean has a strong storytelling tradition, much as other cultures (though less and less American culture).
Yes. Is pretty much the same here in Colombia and South America. I have go to United States only twice, but my impression is much the same. United States people has not a storytelling tradition like the people in Caribbean and South America... may be is because big media are not so important in rural places and still we have a lot of local ancient traditions. Anyway cultural differences are things to preserve with this new media.
Thanks, Tim
Thanks to you.
Cheers,
Offray
On Oct 8, 2007, at 9:41 PM, Offray Vladimir Luna Cardenas wrote:
For this semester I'm thinking in something like "dramabotics"... a way to use Bots Inc mixed with Etoys for storytelling on local folklore as an attempt to mix narration and programming and making bridges between ways to think and ways to "make and express culture". We know about experiences using Squeak for making young people to learn about "universal" concepts of Science and Technology, but it would be nice to use this metamedium also for making young people to learn about "local" things on folklore. Making bridges between Science, Technology and Folklore and knowing the limits on how them affect, talk and explain the world is important in keeping a cultural rich and diverse environment.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
Offray Vladimir Luna Cardenas wrote:
Hi Timothy,
Timothy Falconer wrote:
Offray,
We're using the same approach in Project Waveplace, using storytelling as the end goal with math & programming along the way. (Much as Alice and Scratch did).
Interesting. Could you give me an url for the project?
Sorry. I just found it. For a moment I don't associate Waveplace name with the url of your recently posted videos. And about them, thanks for considering other formats instead of mov and publishing in flash format (which have very good support on Linux for 64 bits, these days).
Cheers,
Offray
BotsInc is more like a introduction to programming and the tools. View Source is The-Real-Thing, but it will be a bit daunting :-) Karl . Walter Bender wrote:
I've not played with it, but I wonder if something like that, set up in a manner akin to Pippy for Python, could be a nice bridge between Etoys and a general purpuse SmallTalk. Hitting View Source inside of Etoys could launch a Botsinc session?
-walter
On 10/8/07, *karl* <karl.ramberg@comhem.se mailto:karl.ramberg@comhem.se> wrote:
Stephane Ducasse's BotsInc is a nice micro smalltalk environment and does not expose the whole class library at once. You get to do text editing, use a limited browser, see the debugger etc Karl Walter Bender wrote: > We have the View Source key available as well, which hopefully will be > used across the entire Sugar interface. > > -walter > > On 10/5/07, *Jecel Assumpcao Jr * < jecel@merlintec.com <mailto:jecel@merlintec.com> > <mailto:jecel@merlintec.com <mailto:jecel@merlintec.com>>> wrote: > > Bert Freudenberg wrote: > > Press Alt-Shift-W to bring up the world menu (I really think we > > should not hide this as much). > > I was thinking that a nice way to get from eToys to Smalltalk would be > to have some project with the class browser and other tools already > open, plus some text explaining things and linking to more tutorials. > > Are preferences associated with the image or can each project have its > own variations? In the latter case the world menu could be enabled in > this particular "down the rabbit hole" project. > > -- Jecel > _______________________________________________ > Etoys mailing list > Etoys@lists.laptop.org <mailto:Etoys@lists.laptop.org> <mailto:Etoys@lists.laptop.org <mailto:Etoys@lists.laptop.org>> > http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/etoys > > > > > -- > Walter Bender > One Laptop per Child > http://laptop.org <http://laptop.org> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Etoys mailing list > Etoys@lists.laptop.org <mailto:Etoys@lists.laptop.org> > http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/etoys >-- Walter Bender One Laptop per Child http://laptop.org
Call me crazy, but I *like* the OLPC toolbar at the top. Can't tell you the number of times I had to remind people to click "Navigator" to do something ... they're used to toolbars.
I'm sure this has been thought of, but what about having the OLPC black toolbar on both XO and non-XO versions, with the following icons:
XO (as now) --- 1. help 2. previous 3. paint 4. supplies 5. undo 6. languages 7. mesh .. 8. save project 9. quit
Non-XO (* are added from now) --- 1. help 2. previous 3. paint 4. supplies 5. undo 6. languages 7. scaling .. 8. new project * 9. load project * (same as "find") 10. save project 11. publish * 12. quit
Only thing left out is volume. Using the same toolbar has the benefit of consistency with OLPC, which will presumably have lots of documentation, videos, etc. (I for one don't want to make two sets of videos)
If people are worried about screen real-estate, make a "toolbar" flap on it for non-XO, and default to having the toolbar be open (for newcomers). Screen hungry types can can click the flap to gain the space back.
Tim
On Oct 5, 2007, at 3:58 AM, Bert Freudenberg wrote:
On Oct 5, 2007, at 5:26 , Yoshiki Ohshima wrote:
Hi, Tim,
Okay, I understand the XO Journal thing better (though I might not personally agree with it :)
Current implementation is missing some important features and hard to use. The fundamental idea can be great, I think. (Alan mentioned that Engelbert's NLS had the idea, too.) Hierarachical file system is some implementation detail to be hidden and being able to keep all versions (which is missing from current Journal) would be great.
This still begs the question ... how does the non-XO world open a project. Dragging and dropping from the file system means that people need to know how to find their files :)
Is it possible to show a "load" menu icon when the image is being run on a non-XO?
Yes, this is the idea. on a non-XO environment, we will show conventional file dialog. If you trace back the code for a few month, you'll see that we used to show "conventional" (though redesigned) file dialog.
As I wrote previously, use the classic navigator outside OLPC.
Press Alt-Shift-W to bring up the world menu (I really think we should not hide this as much). Pin it down using the top-right button for further use.
Select "flaps..." - "destroy all shared flaps", then "install classic etoy flaps".
- Bert -
Etoys mailing list Etoys@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/etoys
etoys-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org
-
Bert Freudenberg -
Jecel Assumpcao Jr -
karl -
Offray Vladimir Luna Cardenas -
Timothy Falconer -
Walter Bender -
Yoshiki Ohshima