Hello,
Since we (people at Viewpoints Research) got couples of B1 Machines, we've been experimenting with them. All in all, it is really nice to have the machine!
First some comments and questions:
* Unfortunately, the touch pad is not working well. To experiment various (software related) stuff on the machine, using an external mouse makes a lot of sense.
* The infrastructure mode of wireless works with my 802.11b wireless router. However, we are having hard time to do it with our office network. It is to do with the router is 802.11g, the wep key is different or some other reasons.
* Is there any way to set up ad hoc (mesh) network between units? I think I saw a wiki entry that says it is not working perfectly, but would like to try it.
Now, a bit of my thought:
Speaking of experiments, I would like to encourage the developers to use Etoys in various ways. It is pretty much the only thing that you can *make* something on the actual machine, currently. For application designers and developers, or content designers, it should give some sense on what it is like to do stuff on it. Its UI is different from the standard OLPC idioms, but the available functionality of Etoys and Squeak still let you do a lot of prototyping.
For example, there is a paint tool in Etoys. If you would like to feel the painting experience on the machine, you can try it in Etoys. It comes will the real-time collaboration, so you can experiment a real-time collaborative painting, for example, with two B1 machines. (Once Sugar gets its own painting tool, we would like to use it, or at least modify the look of the Squeak's painting tool so that it imitates the native painting tool.)
If you think that constructionist approach is a good idea, it would be good to think that kids should *make* stuff by themselves to learn stuff. For example, I think that the things like Memory game are something to be written by children. Also, there was some discussion on a clock application: waking up the machine is out of scope of Etoys, but the other part, making a functioning clock, is something an elementary school children can do in Etoys. Instead of giving a nicely done, professional looking clock from us, it would be great to see kids-made versions.
This means that what we should write is to create the materials on how to make such games or things. We have a few examples in Etoys. Launch Etoys on it, and press "All" button. In the file list, go to "ExampleEtoys" and choose one. If you say that the curriculum is supposed to be something to be built by the local goverments and users. So, we should make an authoring tool to make such materials.
Viewing source code was under discussion. The implementation langauge of Etoys, again, is different from the standard language on OLPC, so it wouldn't serve as a prototype or mockup. That said, Etoys already have built-in development facility that expose all source code in the system. One may get some idea from there. (Is somebody going to write a Python development environment for children?)
For the basic concepts, take a look at: http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Sugar_EToys
If you don't have your own projects, Etoys try to load a default project and it takes some time (too much time). Once you make one, the start up time is almost acceptable
We are actively improving Etoys. To try the latest stuff please download:
http://tinlizzie.org/olpc/etoys-2.0-1133.zip
and copy/replace the etoys-2.0-1133.image to:
/usr/share/etoys/etoys.image
If you are interested in developing something in it, download:
http://tinlizzie.org/olpc/etoys-dev-2.0-1133.zip
and launch the image with a Squeak VM that you already have on your computer.
Thank you!
-- Yoshiki
Yoshiki Ohshima wrote:
For example, there is a paint tool in Etoys. If you would like to feel the painting experience on the machine, you can try it in Etoys. It comes will the real-time collaboration, so you can experiment a real-time collaborative painting, for example, with two B1 machines. (Once Sugar gets its own painting tool, we would like to use it, or at least modify the look of the Squeak's painting tool so that it imitates the native painting tool.)
I really like the paint tool from Scratch.(http://scratch.mit.edu/) Could we get that over to OPLC-Squeak ? Karl
On Dec 2, 2006, at 15:23 , Karl wrote:
Yoshiki Ohshima wrote:
For example, there is a paint tool in Etoys. If you would like to feel the painting experience on the machine, you can try it in Etoys. It comes will the real-time collaboration, so you can experiment a real-time collaborative painting, for example, with two B1 machines. (Once Sugar gets its own painting tool, we would like to use it, or at least modify the look of the Squeak's painting tool so that it imitates the native painting tool.)
I really like the paint tool from Scratch.(http://scratch.mit.edu/) Could we get that over to OPLC-Squeak ?
Ask the Scratch guys what their license is.
- Bert -
Karl,
I really like the paint tool from Scratch.(http://scratch.mit.edu/) Could we get that over to OPLC-Squeak ?
The license issue aside, it is an interesting option. One of the goals is to make the tool the users use has similar look; I.e., the paint tool that the user would use in Etoys and the official paint tool in Sugar should provide common interface. There are some senarios toward this goal:
1. We use current Etoys paint tool, and adjust its look and feel.
2. Incorporate Scratch's paint tool and adjust its look and feel.
3. Use Sugar's painting tool (if possible).
The last one is probably the hardest. It is probably not quick enough to launch, and implementing onion skin over Etoys might be an issue. But for the user, if nicely integrated, it can be the best thing.
Either the option 1 or 2, it requires some work, and the option 2 would require more. We need to wait for the Sugar's implementation anyway and see what we can do.
(Another option is that exporting the paint tool in Etoys as the standard painting tool. This has many upsides.)
-- Yoshiki
Yoshiki Ohshima skrev:
Karl,
I really like the paint tool from Scratch.(http://scratch.mit.edu/) Could we get that over to OPLC-Squeak ?
The license issue aside, it is an interesting option. One of the goals is to make the tool the users use has similar look; I.e., the paint tool that the user would use in Etoys and the official paint tool in Sugar should provide common interface. There are some senarios toward this goal:
We use current Etoys paint tool, and adjust its look and feel.
Incorporate Scratch's paint tool and adjust its look and feel.
Use Sugar's painting tool (if possible).
The last one is probably the hardest. It is probably not quick enough to launch, and implementing onion skin over Etoys might be an issue. But for the user, if nicely integrated, it can be the best thing.
Either the option 1 or 2, it requires some work, and the option 2 would require more. We need to wait for the Sugar's implementation anyway and see what we can do.
(Another option is that exporting the paint tool in Etoys as the standard painting tool. This has many upsides.)
-- Yoshiki
I asked John and he said the source of Scratch will be out in 2007 sometime, and probably MIT license. But I guess if the paint tool is to be changed to OLPC ui spec anyway, we can just stay with the current paint tool. karl
What are the important positive properties of the Scratch paint tool? What parts are UI and what parts are functional improvements?
Cheers,
Alan
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At 10:33 AM 12/9/2006, Yoshiki Ohshima wrote:
Karl,
I really like the paint tool from Scratch.(http://scratch.mit.edu/) Could we get that over to OPLC-Squeak ?
The license issue aside, it is an interesting option. One of the goals is to make the tool the users use has similar look; I.e., the paint tool that the user would use in Etoys and the official paint tool in Sugar should provide common interface. There are some senarios toward this goal:
We use current Etoys paint tool, and adjust its look and feel.
Incorporate Scratch's paint tool and adjust its look and feel.
Use Sugar's painting tool (if possible).
The last one is probably the hardest. It is probably not quick enough to launch, and implementing onion skin over Etoys might be an issue. But for the user, if nicely integrated, it can be the best thing.
Either the option 1 or 2, it requires some work, and the option 2 would require more. We need to wait for the Sugar's implementation anyway and see what we can do.
(Another option is that exporting the paint tool in Etoys as the standard painting tool. This has many upsides.)
-- Yoshiki
Etoys mailing list Etoys@laptop.org http://mailman.laptop.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys
Alan Kay wrote:
What are the important positive properties of the Scratch paint tool? What parts are UI and what parts are functional improvements?
Cheers,
Alan
I find the non degrading zooming part good, because it allows details to be drawn much more precisely. I know eToy paint tool have had scaling but I have found it hard to use and that it scaled the drawing so it was pretty much useless for detail work. Scratch paint tool have gradient fills and some other enhancements as well. But much of it is UI related and I think the Scratch UI is easier to extend when one has the urge to add some new features. The current etoys paint UI, while pretty good, is very hard to add features to. Karl
At 10:33 AM 12/9/2006, Yoshiki Ohshima wrote:
Karl,
I really like the paint tool from Scratch.(http://scratch.mit.edu/) Could we get that over to OPLC-Squeak ?
The license issue aside, it is an interesting option. One of the goals is to make the tool the users use has similar look; I.e., the paint tool that the user would use in Etoys and the official paint tool in Sugar should provide common interface. There are some senarios toward this goal:
We use current Etoys paint tool, and adjust its look and feel.
Incorporate Scratch's paint tool and adjust its look and feel.
Use Sugar's painting tool (if possible).
The last one is probably the hardest. It is probably not quick enough to launch, and implementing onion skin over Etoys might be an issue. But for the user, if nicely integrated, it can be the best thing.
Either the option 1 or 2, it requires some work, and the option 2 would require more. We need to wait for the Sugar's implementation anyway and see what we can do.
(Another option is that exporting the paint tool in Etoys as the standard painting tool. This has many upsides.)
-- Yoshiki
Etoys mailing list Etoys@laptop.org http://mailman.laptop.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys
Etoys mailing list Etoys@laptop.org http://mailman.laptop.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys
Other than what Karl wrote, there are some differences.
UI wise: * The buttons are more sensibly located. * There are two color charts and they don't pop up. Having pre-allocated colors is good especially color:sees: is involved.
Feature wize: * block of area move. * Redo. * mirror, scaling rotation are easier to use. (We took the features out, but it seems that these features are more accessible in Scratch's way.)
The downside, compared to Etoys are: * The brush size panel pops up and down. * fewer shapes.
The difference is not substantial but the biggest one is that Scratch one looks more like a painting tool.
-- Yoshiki
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On Thu, Nov 30, 2006 at 12:07:08PM -0800, Yoshiki Ohshima wrote:
Viewing source code was under discussion. The implementation langauge of Etoys, again, is different from the standard language on OLPC, so it wouldn't serve as a prototype or mockup. That said, Etoys already have built-in development facility that expose all source code in the system. One may get some idea from there. (Is somebody going to write a Python development environment for children?)
Yup, I am. :)
http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Develop
Now, I think it is important for Develop and Etoys to share some common idioms, but reconciling the Squeak development model with the Python/Sugar one is kind of tricky. That, and I've not quite figured out Squeak yet...
Thank you!
-- Yoshiki _______________________________________________ Etoys mailing list Etoys@laptop.org http://mailman.laptop.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys
- -- Regards (and Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays), Andrew Clunis
On Dec 25, 2006, at 6:02 , Andrew Clunis wrote:
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On Thu, Nov 30, 2006 at 12:07:08PM -0800, Yoshiki Ohshima wrote:
Viewing source code was under discussion. The implementation langauge of Etoys, again, is different from the standard language on OLPC, so it wouldn't serve as a prototype or mockup. That said, Etoys already have built-in development facility that expose all source code in the system. One may get some idea from there. (Is somebody going to write a Python development environment for children?)
Yup, I am. :)
http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Develop
Now, I think it is important for Develop and Etoys to share some common idioms, but reconciling the Squeak development model with the Python/Sugar one is kind of tricky. That, and I've not quite figured out Squeak yet...
We thought about saving an etoys project as an activity. The missing part is still that Sugar does not support adding activities at runtime, yet, as far as I can tell at least.
- Bert -
Hi Andrew --
Here are two white papers about Etoys. The first gives the gist of what they are and how they are used for education. The second is a discussion about how media can be made in simple ways in Etoys.
http://www.squeakland.org/pdf/etoys_n_learning.pdf
http://www.squeakland.org/pdf/etoys_n_authoring.pdf
There is quite a bit more available http://www.squeakland.org including a book "Powerful Ideas in the Classroom". And quite a few example projects and projects done by children.
There are a number of separate chapters to this book available at: http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Etoys_projects . This wiki page hasn't been added to the external wiki yet. The chapters can be downloaded by clicking on the captions of the pictures. (Eventually) clicking on the pictures will download the actual example projects.
As I mentioned in a previous note, it would be a very good thing for there to be more continuity in how scripting is done with children aged 3-5, 6-8, 9-11 (Etoys is aimed specifically at this age range but works OK for a few years either side), 12-14, 15-18. Each of the age ranges needs somewhat different treatment, resources and UI.
I have been trying to get the Python community to do a special children's environment, either along the lines of Etoys or better (but not worse), partly on the grounds that the XO is Python-based, and that the Python community is larger out in the world, and thus a Python based system is likely to be more changeable and fixable by the receivers of XO. From the standpoint of our rallying cry "Children First", this would be a very good result.
However, I have also suggested to the Python community that they take the time to see how and why the underlying Squeak environment is so integrated, complete and portable. This should provide some ideas about how to make Python more like a felicitous place to live as well as being a useful toolbox.
Cheers,
Alan
At 09:02 PM 12/24/2006, Andrew Clunis wrote:
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On Thu, Nov 30, 2006 at 12:07:08PM -0800, Yoshiki Ohshima wrote:
Viewing source code was under discussion. The implementation langauge of Etoys, again, is different from the standard language on OLPC, so it wouldn't serve as a prototype or mockup. That said, Etoys already have built-in development facility that expose all source code in the system. One may get some idea from there. (Is somebody going to write a Python development environment for children?)
Yup, I am. :)
http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Develop
Now, I think it is important for Develop and Etoys to share some common idioms, but reconciling the Squeak development model with the Python/Sugar one is kind of tricky. That, and I've not quite figured out Squeak yet...
Thank you!
-- Yoshiki _______________________________________________ Etoys mailing list Etoys@laptop.org http://mailman.laptop.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys
Regards (and Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays), Andrew Clunis -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.3 (GNU/Linux)
iD8DBQFFj1tJALkUMXSNow8RAlj/AJ44Bd+U65HYTp7ZrzZcvKQjSXAGlgCeJ1Az we6FnpLIJH9k+vP5ItTyomA= =kUyU -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- _______________________________________________ Etoys mailing list Etoys@laptop.org http://mailman.laptop.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys
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Alan Kay -
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Karl
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Yoshiki Ohshima