I guess we want to also make clear how to fetch the source code of Etoys, so community may be easily capable to produce relevant packaging for Linux distro. I think it is important to clearly indicated where are the source codes.
Here is a small suggestion to add in the Download page:
== <h2>Etoys source code</h2>
<p>Etoys is composed of two elements: a virtual machine binary specific to each architecture and Smalltalk source code independent of the host architecture. The source code is naturally spanned in these two elements:</p> <ul> <li><a href="http://www.squeakvm.org">The Squeak Virtual machine source code, written in C</a></li> <li>The <a href="http://etoys.laptop.org/svn/trunk/">Smalltalk source code</a> composed of two files: <ul> <li>the <b>EtoysV4.sources</b> primary source code</li> <li>the <b>etoys.changes</b>, history of modification to the primary source code file above</li> </ul> These source codes compile as a Smalltalk binary, <b>etoys.image</b>. Although these source codes files are huge, there is no other source code file. These files can be edited from any text editor, but they are best viewed and edited from Etoys itself when opening a code browser ([Ctrl]+[b]).</li> </ul>
On 25.10.2009, at 10:07, Hilaire Fernandes wrote:
I guess we want to also make clear how to fetch the source code of Etoys, so community may be easily capable to produce relevant packaging for Linux distro. I think it is important to clearly indicated where are the source codes.
Here is a small suggestion to add in the Download page:
==
<h2>Etoys source code</h2>
<p>Etoys is composed of two elements: a virtual machine binary specific to each architecture and Smalltalk source code independent of the host architecture. The source code is naturally spanned in these two elements:</p> <ul> <li><a href="http://www.squeakvm.org">The Squeak Virtual machine source code, written in C</a></li> <li>The <a href="http://etoys.laptop.org/svn/trunk/">Smalltalk source code</a> composed of two files: <ul> <li>the <b>EtoysV4.sources</b> primary source code</li> <li>the <b>etoys.changes</b>, history of modification to the primary source code file above</li> </ul> These source codes compile as a Smalltalk binary, <b>etoys.image</b>. Although these source codes files are huge, there is no other source code file. These files can be edited from any text editor, but they are best viewed and edited from Etoys itself when opening a code browser ([Ctrl]+[b]).</li> </ul>
Yes, we definitely need something like this.
I'd explicitly state that all Etoys source code is included with Etoys. It does not need to be downloaded separately. What's missing is just the Squeak Virtual Machine source code used to run the Etoys image, and that can be found at squeakvm.org.
It is wrong to write "These files can be edited from any text editor" because this does not affect the system except for breaking source browsing.
- Bert -
2009/10/26 Bert Freudenberg bert@freudenbergs.de:
It is wrong to write "These files can be edited from any text editor" because this does not affect the system except for breaking source browsing.
No, it is not wrong from the access to source code dude point of view.
Hilaire
On 27.10.2009, at 03:51, Hilaire Fernandes wrote:
2009/10/26 Bert Freudenberg bert@freudenbergs.de:
It is wrong to write "These files can be edited from any text editor" because this does not affect the system except for breaking source browsing.
No, it is not wrong from the access to source code dude point of view.
There is a huge difference between editing and viewing.
To be considered Free Software you need to be able not only to study a program, but to be able to change its behavior. That's GNU's software freedom #1:
http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html
Editing the sources or changes file in any text editor does not change Etoys' behavior.
- Bert -
I agree, but many free software activists want to be able to view the source code with a simple code text editor. This is what developer without knowledge about Smalltalk ask me. Any way this is just an option to view the source code and I don't see how it can hurt.
Hilaire
2009/10/27 Bert Freudenberg bert@freudenbergs.de:
On 27.10.2009, at 03:51, Hilaire Fernandes wrote:
2009/10/26 Bert Freudenberg bert@freudenbergs.de:
It is wrong to write "These files can be edited from any text editor" because this does not affect the system except for breaking source browsing.
No, it is not wrong from the access to source code dude point of view.
There is a huge difference between editing and viewing.
To be considered Free Software you need to be able not only to study a program, but to be able to change its behavior. That's GNU's software freedom #1:
http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html
Editing the sources or changes file in any text editor does not change Etoys' behavior.
- Bert -
etoys-dev mailing list etoys-dev@squeakland.org http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys-dev
On 27.10.2009, at 13:28, Hilaire Fernandes wrote:
I agree, but many free software activists want to be able to view the source code with a simple code text editor. This is what developer without knowledge about Smalltalk ask me. Any way this is just an option to view the source code and I don't see how it can hurt.
Hilaire
Here is how it would hurt:
By suggesting you can edit sources and changes with any text editor you are making false promises. In this regard Smalltalk is simply different from about any other programming system. People unfamiliar with Smalltalk would assume that editing these files would allow them to change Etoys, because that's how development usually works. But not in Squeak.
On the contrary, even if you did not have these files, you could still view and change Etoys source code perfectly fine. The only thing you would miss is comments and names of temporary variables. This illustrates that the primary artifact is the image, not the text chunks stored in the sources and changes files.
I don't see why you would want to put a misleading statement like "These files can be edited from any text editor" on the download page. Yes, you could also edit an MP3 audio file in any text editor, which is literally true, but deceiving.
I understand that you want to appeal to the "free software activists" who don't know how Smalltalk development works. But there is no need to misrepresent the truth. Etoys is Free software even to the letter of the FSF's definition. We do not need to resort to propaganda.
- Bert -
2009/10/27 Bert Freudenberg bert@freudenbergs.de:
On 27.10.2009, at 03:51, Hilaire Fernandes wrote:
2009/10/26 Bert Freudenberg bert@freudenbergs.de:
It is wrong to write "These files can be edited from any text editor" because this does not affect the system except for breaking source browsing.
No, it is not wrong from the access to source code dude point of view.
There is a huge difference between editing and viewing.
To be considered Free Software you need to be able not only to study a program, but to be able to change its behavior. That's GNU's software freedom #1:
http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html
Editing the sources or changes file in any text editor does not change Etoys' behavior.
- Bert -
So in my sentence, change 'edited from a text editor' by 'viewed from a text editor', I agree 'edited' induce false hope of being able to modify the code from a text editor, which effectively is not operable for .sources and the .changes. Anyway some people make a strong point at been able to view from a simple text editor. I know all the arguments you wrote, that's not the point. I am taking the point of view of people without knowledge with Smalltalk and I am trying to provide them an easier curve to understand how is arranged the source code architecture in Smalltalk.
Hilaire
2009/10/27 Bert Freudenberg bert@freudenbergs.de:
On 27.10.2009, at 13:28, Hilaire Fernandes wrote:
I agree, but many free software activists want to be able to view the source code with a simple code text editor. This is what developer without knowledge about Smalltalk ask me. Any way this is just an option to view the source code and I don't see how it can hurt.
Hilaire
Here is how it would hurt:
By suggesting you can edit sources and changes with any text editor you are making false promises. In this regard Smalltalk is simply different from about any other programming system. People unfamiliar with Smalltalk would assume that editing these files would allow them to change Etoys, because that's how development usually works. But not in Squeak.
On the contrary, even if you did not have these files, you could still view and change Etoys source code perfectly fine. The only thing you would miss is comments and names of temporary variables. This illustrates that the primary artifact is the image, not the text chunks stored in the sources and changes files.
I don't see why you would want to put a misleading statement like "These files can be edited from any text editor" on the download page. Yes, you could also edit an MP3 audio file in any text editor, which is literally true, but deceiving.
I understand that you want to appeal to the "free software activists" who don't know how Smalltalk development works. But there is no need to misrepresent the truth. Etoys is Free software even to the letter of the FSF's definition. We do not need to resort to propaganda.
- Bert -
2009/10/27 Bert Freudenberg bert@freudenbergs.de:
On 27.10.2009, at 03:51, Hilaire Fernandes wrote:
2009/10/26 Bert Freudenberg bert@freudenbergs.de:
It is wrong to write "These files can be edited from any text editor" because this does not affect the system except for breaking source browsing.
No, it is not wrong from the access to source code dude point of view.
There is a huge difference between editing and viewing.
To be considered Free Software you need to be able not only to study a program, but to be able to change its behavior. That's GNU's software freedom #1:
http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html
Editing the sources or changes file in any text editor does not change Etoys' behavior.
- Bert -
etoys-dev mailing list etoys-dev@squeakland.org http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys-dev
etoys-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org
-
Bert Freudenberg -
Hilaire Fernandes