From the perspective of "minimizing user paralysis", I think there's an argument to be made against this change, and indeed perhaps even an argument to be made to go in the opposite direction: instead of forcing the user to make *two* modal decisions right away (first dream up a variable name, then decide on a value-type) it might be preferable to have the user make *no* modal decisions when adding a variable.
This has long been a good choice for scripts -- we give you a default name, such as "script3", and you can leave it that way if you want or you can, at your leisure, edit the name into something useful and descriptive. But you're not blocked by being forced to give your attention to specifying a name right away.
Thinking up a name can be a powerful blocker; choosing a type from list that one does not understand might be worse. Having both of these standing in the way of creating a user-defined variable might not be a good thing.
Better, arguably, is to give a newly-launched variable a default name and a default value-type, and then also make it more straightforward and inviting to change the name and change the value-type, without needing to fish in menus.
We did that a while ago in an internal vpri fork: add-variable gives you a variable with a default name and a value-type already provided; when and if desired, click on the variable name and text-edit to rename the variable; click on a little "value-type" icon to the right of the name to get a list of value-type choices. No modal roadblocks to getting started, no fishing in menus to make changes.
This improves the work-flow of add-a-variable quite a bit, and might be a good thing for squeakland as well. However, it's probably too late in the development cycle of the imminent release to make such a change…
Just tossing this out for discussion...
-- Scott
On Feb 6, 2012, at 8:17 PM, commits@source.squeak.org wrote:
Ricardo Moran uploaded a new version of Etoys to project Etoys: http://source.squeak.org/etoys/Etoys-Richo.103.mcz
==================== Summary ====================
Name: Etoys-Richo.103 Author: Richo Time: 6 February 2012, 5:16:57 pm UUID: 84503c98-7c83-064f-957f-5bacf093d22e Ancestors: Etoys-kfr.102
Sixteen items for Squeakland 2012:
- On Add Variable: Show options for value type - to make it easier to discover different types besides number (Ex: player, color, etc).
etoys-dev mailing list etoys-dev@squeakland.org http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys-dev
On Tue, Feb 7, 2012 at 1:49 AM, Scott Wallace scott.wallace@squeakland.org wrote:
From the perspective of "minimizing user paralysis", I think there's an argument to be made against this change, and indeed perhaps even an argument to be made to go in the opposite direction: instead of forcing the user to make *two* modal decisions right away (first dream up a variable name, then decide on a value-type) it might be preferable to have the user make *no* modal decisions when adding a variable.
This has long been a good choice for scripts -- we give you a default name, such as "script3", and you can leave it that way if you want or you can, at your leisure, edit the name into something useful and descriptive. But you're not blocked by being forced to give your attention to specifying a name right away.
Thinking up a name can be a powerful blocker; choosing a type from list that one does not understand might be worse. Having both of these standing in the way of creating a user-defined variable might not be a good thing.
Better, arguably, is to give a newly-launched variable a default name and a default value-type, and then also make it more straightforward and inviting to change the name and change the value-type, without needing to fish in menus.
We did that a while ago in an internal vpri fork: add-variable gives you a variable with a default name and a value-type already provided; when and if desired, click on the variable name and text-edit to rename the variable; click on a little "value-type" icon to the right of the name to get a list of value-type choices. No modal roadblocks to getting started, no fishing in menus to make changes.
This improves the work-flow of add-a-variable quite a bit, and might be a good thing for squeakland as well. However, it's probably too late in the development cycle of the imminent release to make such a change…
Just tossing this out for discussion...
Is this code for a other system or can it be filed into Etoys ?
Another way of doing this would be to make a Hypercard like Variable Info dialog http://www.loper-os.org/wp-content/hypercard-calc/hc11.jpg
A modal window with all the menu options presented for a variable: a menu to change the variable type, a field change the name etc.
Karl
-- Scott
On Feb 6, 2012, at 8:17 PM, commits@source.squeak.org wrote:
Ricardo Moran uploaded a new version of Etoys to project Etoys: http://source.squeak.org/etoys/Etoys-Richo.103.mcz
==================== Summary ====================
Name: Etoys-Richo.103 Author: Richo Time: 6 February 2012, 5:16:57 pm UUID: 84503c98-7c83-064f-957f-5bacf093d22e Ancestors: Etoys-kfr.102
Sixteen items for Squeakland 2012:
- On Add Variable: Show options for value type - to make it easier to discover different types besides number (Ex: player, color, etc).
etoys-dev mailing list etoys-dev@squeakland.org http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys-dev
etoys-dev mailing list etoys-dev@squeakland.org http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys-dev
On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 7:49 PM, Scott Wallace scott.wallace@squeakland.orgwrote:
Better, arguably, is to give a newly-launched variable a default name and a default value-type, and then also make it more straightforward and inviting to change the name and change the value-type, without needing to fish in menus.
Agreed. Something like: [image: AddVariable I.png]
or
[image: AddVariable II.png]
We did that a while ago in an internal vpri fork: add-variable gives you a variable with a default name and a value-type already provided; when and if desired, click on the variable name and text-edit to rename the variable; click on a little "value-type" icon to the right of the name to get a list of value-type choices. No modal roadblocks to getting started, no fishing in menus to make changes.
This improves the work-flow of add-a-variable quite a bit, and might be a good thing for squeakland as well. However, it's probably too late in the development cycle of the imminent release to make such a change…
Ideally we would have a group of kids we who could help test these ideas.
I don't see a problem with waiting at this point.
Stephen
On Tue, Feb 7, 2012 at 5:31 PM, Steve Thomas sthomas1@gosargon.com wrote:
On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 7:49 PM, Scott Wallace < scott.wallace@squeakland.org> wrote:
Better, arguably, is to give a newly-launched variable a default name and a default value-type, and then also make it more straightforward and inviting to change the name and change the value-type, without needing to fish in menus.
Agreed. Something like: [image: AddVariable I.png]
or
[image: AddVariable II.png]
Nice.
Maybe we should use the PropertiesMorphs for this ?
Also some of the variable types have additional spec Number and Point have 'decimal places...' Player have 'tiles to get...' ( I'm not really familiar with this)
After reading Scotts mail I think this dialog should be presented by request, not by default. And that we bypass the 'FillInTheBlank' naming of variable in the first place ?
Karl
We did that a while ago in an internal vpri fork: add-variable gives you a variable with a default name and a value-type already provided; when and if desired, click on the variable name and text-edit to rename the variable; click on a little "value-type" icon to the right of the name to get a list of value-type choices. No modal roadblocks to getting started, no fishing in menus to make changes.
This improves the work-flow of add-a-variable quite a bit, and might be a good thing for squeakland as well. However, it's probably too late in the development cycle of the imminent release to make such a change…
Ideally we would have a group of kids we who could help test these ideas.
I don't see a problem with waiting at this point.
Stephen
etoys-dev mailing list etoys-dev@squeakland.org http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys-dev
This would be easy to do and it would be a great improvement, but I don't think this dialog should be open by request. If I understood correctly, the problem that originated this issue was that the slot types other than #Number were difficult to find, so hiding this dialog won't solve it.
Cheers, Richo
On Tue, Feb 7, 2012 at 3:07 PM, karl ramberg karlramberg@gmail.com wrote:
On Tue, Feb 7, 2012 at 5:31 PM, Steve Thomas sthomas1@gosargon.comwrote:
On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 7:49 PM, Scott Wallace < scott.wallace@squeakland.org> wrote:
Better, arguably, is to give a newly-launched variable a default name and a default value-type, and then also make it more straightforward and inviting to change the name and change the value-type, without needing to fish in menus.
Agreed. Something like: [image: AddVariable I.png]
or
[image: AddVariable II.png]
Nice.
Maybe we should use the PropertiesMorphs for this ?
Also some of the variable types have additional spec Number and Point have 'decimal places...' Player have 'tiles to get...' ( I'm not really familiar with this)
After reading Scotts mail I think this dialog should be presented by request, not by default. And that we bypass the 'FillInTheBlank' naming of variable in the first place ?
Karl
We did that a while ago in an internal vpri fork: add-variable gives you a variable with a default name and a value-type already provided; when and if desired, click on the variable name and text-edit to rename the variable; click on a little "value-type" icon to the right of the name to get a list of value-type choices. No modal roadblocks to getting started, no fishing in menus to make changes.
This improves the work-flow of add-a-variable quite a bit, and might be a good thing for squeakland as well. However, it's probably too late in the development cycle of the imminent release to make such a change…
Ideally we would have a group of kids we who could help test these ideas.
I don't see a problem with waiting at this point.
Stephen
etoys-dev mailing list etoys-dev@squeakland.org http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys-dev
etoys-dev mailing list etoys-dev@squeakland.org http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys-dev
Hi,
I've made the following dialog using the PropertiesMorph as suggested.
[image: NewVariableDialog.png]
It opens by default when clicking on the "add new variable" button. I think this solution is better than the two modal dialogs and it also makes the different slot types a little more visible.
I attached a change set if you want to test it.
Cheers, Richo
On Wed, Feb 8, 2012 at 12:21 PM, Ricardo Moran richi.moran@gmail.comwrote:
This would be easy to do and it would be a great improvement, but I don't think this dialog should be open by request. If I understood correctly, the problem that originated this issue was that the slot types other than #Number were difficult to find, so hiding this dialog won't solve it.
Cheers, Richo
On Tue, Feb 7, 2012 at 3:07 PM, karl ramberg karlramberg@gmail.comwrote:
On Tue, Feb 7, 2012 at 5:31 PM, Steve Thomas sthomas1@gosargon.comwrote:
On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 7:49 PM, Scott Wallace < scott.wallace@squeakland.org> wrote:
Better, arguably, is to give a newly-launched variable a default name and a default value-type, and then also make it more straightforward and inviting to change the name and change the value-type, without needing to fish in menus.
Agreed. Something like: [image: AddVariable I.png]
or
[image: AddVariable II.png]
Nice.
Maybe we should use the PropertiesMorphs for this ?
Also some of the variable types have additional spec Number and Point have 'decimal places...' Player have 'tiles to get...' ( I'm not really familiar with this)
After reading Scotts mail I think this dialog should be presented by request, not by default. And that we bypass the 'FillInTheBlank' naming of variable in the first place ?
Karl
We did that a while ago in an internal vpri fork: add-variable gives you a variable with a default name and a value-type already provided; when and if desired, click on the variable name and text-edit to rename the variable; click on a little "value-type" icon to the right of the name to get a list of value-type choices. No modal roadblocks to getting started, no fishing in menus to make changes.
This improves the work-flow of add-a-variable quite a bit, and might be a good thing for squeakland as well. However, it's probably too late in the development cycle of the imminent release to make such a change…
Ideally we would have a group of kids we who could help test these ideas.
I don't see a problem with waiting at this point.
Stephen
etoys-dev mailing list etoys-dev@squeakland.org http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys-dev
etoys-dev mailing list etoys-dev@squeakland.org http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys-dev
Nice, May want to add arrows to Type (similar to the way make sound scripting tile works) to invite kids to click on it).
Ed Team should think about Quick Guides on Variables, and perhaps balloon help when you mouse over the variable types.
Stephen
On Thu, Feb 9, 2012 at 12:01 PM, Ricardo Moran richi.moran@gmail.comwrote:
Hi,
I've made the following dialog using the PropertiesMorph as suggested.
[image: NewVariableDialog.png]
It opens by default when clicking on the "add new variable" button. I think this solution is better than the two modal dialogs and it also makes the different slot types a little more visible.
I attached a change set if you want to test it.
Cheers, Richo
On Wed, Feb 8, 2012 at 12:21 PM, Ricardo Moran richi.moran@gmail.comwrote:
This would be easy to do and it would be a great improvement, but I don't think this dialog should be open by request. If I understood correctly, the problem that originated this issue was that the slot types other than #Number were difficult to find, so hiding this dialog won't solve it.
Cheers, Richo
On Tue, Feb 7, 2012 at 3:07 PM, karl ramberg karlramberg@gmail.comwrote:
On Tue, Feb 7, 2012 at 5:31 PM, Steve Thomas sthomas1@gosargon.comwrote:
On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 7:49 PM, Scott Wallace < scott.wallace@squeakland.org> wrote:
Better, arguably, is to give a newly-launched variable a default name and a default value-type, and then also make it more straightforward and inviting to change the name and change the value-type, without needing to fish in menus.
Agreed. Something like: [image: AddVariable I.png]
or
[image: AddVariable II.png]
Nice.
Maybe we should use the PropertiesMorphs for this ?
Also some of the variable types have additional spec Number and Point have 'decimal places...' Player have 'tiles to get...' ( I'm not really familiar with this)
After reading Scotts mail I think this dialog should be presented by request, not by default. And that we bypass the 'FillInTheBlank' naming of variable in the first place ?
Karl
We did that a while ago in an internal vpri fork: add-variable gives you a variable with a default name and a value-type already provided; when and if desired, click on the variable name and text-edit to rename the variable; click on a little "value-type" icon to the right of the name to get a list of value-type choices. No modal roadblocks to getting started, no fishing in menus to make changes.
This improves the work-flow of add-a-variable quite a bit, and might be a good thing for squeakland as well. However, it's probably too late in the development cycle of the imminent release to make such a change…
Ideally we would have a group of kids we who could help test these ideas.
I don't see a problem with waiting at this point.
Stephen
etoys-dev mailing list etoys-dev@squeakland.org http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys-dev
etoys-dev mailing list etoys-dev@squeakland.org http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys-dev
On Thu, Feb 9, 2012 at 2:10 PM, Steve Thomas sthomas1@gosargon.com wrote:
Nice, May want to add arrows to Type (similar to the way make sound scripting tile works) to invite kids to click on it).
Great idea, how about now?
[image: NewVariableDialog.png]
Cheers, Richo
Ed Team should think about Quick Guides on Variables, and perhaps balloon help when you mouse over the variable types.
Stephen
On Thu, Feb 9, 2012 at 12:01 PM, Ricardo Moran richi.moran@gmail.comwrote:
Hi,
I've made the following dialog using the PropertiesMorph as suggested.
[image: NewVariableDialog.png]
It opens by default when clicking on the "add new variable" button. I think this solution is better than the two modal dialogs and it also makes the different slot types a little more visible.
I attached a change set if you want to test it.
Cheers, Richo
On Wed, Feb 8, 2012 at 12:21 PM, Ricardo Moran richi.moran@gmail.comwrote:
This would be easy to do and it would be a great improvement, but I don't think this dialog should be open by request. If I understood correctly, the problem that originated this issue was that the slot types other than #Number were difficult to find, so hiding this dialog won't solve it.
Cheers, Richo
On Tue, Feb 7, 2012 at 3:07 PM, karl ramberg karlramberg@gmail.comwrote:
On Tue, Feb 7, 2012 at 5:31 PM, Steve Thomas sthomas1@gosargon.comwrote:
On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 7:49 PM, Scott Wallace < scott.wallace@squeakland.org> wrote:
Better, arguably, is to give a newly-launched variable a default name and a default value-type, and then also make it more straightforward and inviting to change the name and change the value-type, without needing to fish in menus.
Agreed. Something like: [image: AddVariable I.png]
or
[image: AddVariable II.png]
Nice.
Maybe we should use the PropertiesMorphs for this ?
Also some of the variable types have additional spec Number and Point have 'decimal places...' Player have 'tiles to get...' ( I'm not really familiar with this)
After reading Scotts mail I think this dialog should be presented by request, not by default. And that we bypass the 'FillInTheBlank' naming of variable in the first place ?
Karl
We did that a while ago in an internal vpri fork: add-variable gives you a variable with a default name and a value-type already provided; when and if desired, click on the variable name and text-edit to rename the variable; click on a little "value-type" icon to the right of the name to get a list of value-type choices. No modal roadblocks to getting started, no fishing in menus to make changes.
This improves the work-flow of add-a-variable quite a bit, and might be a good thing for squeakland as well. However, it's probably too late in the development cycle of the imminent release to make such a change…
Ideally we would have a group of kids we who could help test these ideas.
I don't see a problem with waiting at this point.
Stephen
etoys-dev mailing list etoys-dev@squeakland.org http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys-dev
etoys-dev mailing list etoys-dev@squeakland.org http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys-dev
This looks nice :-) Great job Ricardo
Karl
On Thu, Feb 9, 2012 at 7:53 PM, Ricardo Moran richi.moran@gmail.com wrote:
On Thu, Feb 9, 2012 at 2:10 PM, Steve Thomas sthomas1@gosargon.comwrote:
Nice, May want to add arrows to Type (similar to the way make sound scripting tile works) to invite kids to click on it).
Great idea, how about now?
[image: NewVariableDialog.png]
Cheers, Richo
Ed Team should think about Quick Guides on Variables, and perhaps balloon help when you mouse over the variable types.
Stephen
On Thu, Feb 9, 2012 at 12:01 PM, Ricardo Moran richi.moran@gmail.comwrote:
Hi,
I've made the following dialog using the PropertiesMorph as suggested.
[image: NewVariableDialog.png]
It opens by default when clicking on the "add new variable" button. I think this solution is better than the two modal dialogs and it also makes the different slot types a little more visible.
I attached a change set if you want to test it.
Cheers, Richo
On Wed, Feb 8, 2012 at 12:21 PM, Ricardo Moran richi.moran@gmail.comwrote:
This would be easy to do and it would be a great improvement, but I don't think this dialog should be open by request. If I understood correctly, the problem that originated this issue was that the slot types other than #Number were difficult to find, so hiding this dialog won't solve it.
Cheers, Richo
On Tue, Feb 7, 2012 at 3:07 PM, karl ramberg karlramberg@gmail.comwrote:
On Tue, Feb 7, 2012 at 5:31 PM, Steve Thomas sthomas1@gosargon.comwrote:
On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 7:49 PM, Scott Wallace < scott.wallace@squeakland.org> wrote:
> Better, arguably, is to give a newly-launched variable a default > name and a default value-type, and then also make it more straightforward > and inviting to change the name and change the value-type, without needing > to fish in menus. > Agreed. Something like: [image: AddVariable I.png]
or
[image: AddVariable II.png]
Nice.
Maybe we should use the PropertiesMorphs for this ?
Also some of the variable types have additional spec Number and Point have 'decimal places...' Player have 'tiles to get...' ( I'm not really familiar with this)
After reading Scotts mail I think this dialog should be presented by request, not by default. And that we bypass the 'FillInTheBlank' naming of variable in the first place ?
Karl
> We did that a while ago in an internal vpri fork: add-variable gives > you a variable with a default name and a value-type already provided; when > and if desired, click on the variable name and text-edit to rename the > variable; click on a little "value-type" icon to the right of the name to > get a list of value-type choices. No modal roadblocks to getting started, > no fishing in menus to make changes. > > This improves the work-flow of add-a-variable quite a bit, and might > be a good thing for squeakland as well. However, it's probably too late in > the development cycle of the imminent release to make such a change…
Ideally we would have a group of kids we who could help test these ideas.
I don't see a problem with waiting at this point.
Stephen
etoys-dev mailing list etoys-dev@squeakland.org http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys-dev
etoys-dev mailing list etoys-dev@squeakland.org http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys-dev
On Thu, Feb 9, 2012 at 7:53 PM, Ricardo Moran richi.moran@gmail.com wrote:
On Thu, Feb 9, 2012 at 2:10 PM, Steve Thomas sthomas1@gosargon.comwrote:
Nice, May want to add arrows to Type (similar to the way make sound scripting tile works) to invite kids to click on it).
Great idea, how about now?
[image: NewVariableDialog.png]
Cheers, Richo
I think this is a good solution for making the variable types visible and not buried into a menu. It has a default selected and still give hints to explore further.
You can choose to name the variable or just use the default name.
Karl
Ed Team should think about Quick Guides on Variables, and perhaps balloon help when you mouse over the variable types.
Stephen
On Thu, Feb 9, 2012 at 12:01 PM, Ricardo Moran richi.moran@gmail.comwrote:
Hi,
I've made the following dialog using the PropertiesMorph as suggested.
[image: NewVariableDialog.png]
It opens by default when clicking on the "add new variable" button. I think this solution is better than the two modal dialogs and it also makes the different slot types a little more visible.
I attached a change set if you want to test it.
Cheers, Richo
On Wed, Feb 8, 2012 at 12:21 PM, Ricardo Moran richi.moran@gmail.comwrote:
This would be easy to do and it would be a great improvement, but I don't think this dialog should be open by request. If I understood correctly, the problem that originated this issue was that the slot types other than #Number were difficult to find, so hiding this dialog won't solve it.
Cheers, Richo
On Tue, Feb 7, 2012 at 3:07 PM, karl ramberg karlramberg@gmail.comwrote:
On Tue, Feb 7, 2012 at 5:31 PM, Steve Thomas sthomas1@gosargon.comwrote:
On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 7:49 PM, Scott Wallace < scott.wallace@squeakland.org> wrote:
> Better, arguably, is to give a newly-launched variable a default > name and a default value-type, and then also make it more straightforward > and inviting to change the name and change the value-type, without needing > to fish in menus. > Agreed. Something like: [image: AddVariable I.png]
or
[image: AddVariable II.png]
Nice.
Maybe we should use the PropertiesMorphs for this ?
Also some of the variable types have additional spec Number and Point have 'decimal places...' Player have 'tiles to get...' ( I'm not really familiar with this)
After reading Scotts mail I think this dialog should be presented by request, not by default. And that we bypass the 'FillInTheBlank' naming of variable in the first place ?
Karl
> We did that a while ago in an internal vpri fork: add-variable gives > you a variable with a default name and a value-type already provided; when > and if desired, click on the variable name and text-edit to rename the > variable; click on a little "value-type" icon to the right of the name to > get a list of value-type choices. No modal roadblocks to getting started, > no fishing in menus to make changes. > > This improves the work-flow of add-a-variable quite a bit, and might > be a good thing for squeakland as well. However, it's probably too late in > the development cycle of the imminent release to make such a change…
Ideally we would have a group of kids we who could help test these ideas.
I don't see a problem with waiting at this point.
Stephen
etoys-dev mailing list etoys-dev@squeakland.org http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys-dev
etoys-dev mailing list etoys-dev@squeakland.org http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys-dev
We should hook this up to the Viewer variable menu in Player slotInfoButtonHitFor:inViewer:
'rename' and 'change value type' could be replaced by this panel.( I'm not sure what to call it: Variable info ?)
I think it's good for consistency that we present just one panel to rename and choose variable type.
Karl
On Thu, Feb 9, 2012 at 7:53 PM, Ricardo Moran richi.moran@gmail.com wrote:
On Thu, Feb 9, 2012 at 2:10 PM, Steve Thomas sthomas1@gosargon.comwrote:
Nice, May want to add arrows to Type (similar to the way make sound scripting tile works) to invite kids to click on it).
Great idea, how about now?
[image: NewVariableDialog.png]
Cheers, Richo
Ed Team should think about Quick Guides on Variables, and perhaps balloon help when you mouse over the variable types.
Stephen
On Thu, Feb 9, 2012 at 12:01 PM, Ricardo Moran richi.moran@gmail.comwrote:
Hi,
I've made the following dialog using the PropertiesMorph as suggested.
[image: NewVariableDialog.png]
It opens by default when clicking on the "add new variable" button. I think this solution is better than the two modal dialogs and it also makes the different slot types a little more visible.
I attached a change set if you want to test it.
Cheers, Richo
On Wed, Feb 8, 2012 at 12:21 PM, Ricardo Moran richi.moran@gmail.comwrote:
This would be easy to do and it would be a great improvement, but I don't think this dialog should be open by request. If I understood correctly, the problem that originated this issue was that the slot types other than #Number were difficult to find, so hiding this dialog won't solve it.
Cheers, Richo
On Tue, Feb 7, 2012 at 3:07 PM, karl ramberg karlramberg@gmail.comwrote:
On Tue, Feb 7, 2012 at 5:31 PM, Steve Thomas sthomas1@gosargon.comwrote:
On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 7:49 PM, Scott Wallace < scott.wallace@squeakland.org> wrote:
> Better, arguably, is to give a newly-launched variable a default > name and a default value-type, and then also make it more straightforward > and inviting to change the name and change the value-type, without needing > to fish in menus. > Agreed. Something like: [image: AddVariable I.png]
or
[image: AddVariable II.png]
Nice.
Maybe we should use the PropertiesMorphs for this ?
Also some of the variable types have additional spec Number and Point have 'decimal places...' Player have 'tiles to get...' ( I'm not really familiar with this)
After reading Scotts mail I think this dialog should be presented by request, not by default. And that we bypass the 'FillInTheBlank' naming of variable in the first place ?
Karl
> We did that a while ago in an internal vpri fork: add-variable gives > you a variable with a default name and a value-type already provided; when > and if desired, click on the variable name and text-edit to rename the > variable; click on a little "value-type" icon to the right of the name to > get a list of value-type choices. No modal roadblocks to getting started, > no fishing in menus to make changes. > > This improves the work-flow of add-a-variable quite a bit, and might > be a good thing for squeakland as well. However, it's probably too late in > the development cycle of the imminent release to make such a change…
Ideally we would have a group of kids we who could help test these ideas.
I don't see a problem with waiting at this point.
Stephen
etoys-dev mailing list etoys-dev@squeakland.org http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys-dev
etoys-dev mailing list etoys-dev@squeakland.org http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys-dev
Yes, you're right. And we should add the "decimal places" if the selected type is number as well.
On Thu, Feb 9, 2012 at 4:24 PM, karl ramberg karlramberg@gmail.com wrote:
We should hook this up to the Viewer variable menu in Player slotInfoButtonHitFor:inViewer:
'rename' and 'change value type' could be replaced by this panel.( I'm not sure what to call it: Variable info ?)
I think it's good for consistency that we present just one panel to rename and choose variable type.
Karl
On Thu, Feb 9, 2012 at 7:53 PM, Ricardo Moran richi.moran@gmail.comwrote:
On Thu, Feb 9, 2012 at 2:10 PM, Steve Thomas sthomas1@gosargon.comwrote:
Nice, May want to add arrows to Type (similar to the way make sound scripting tile works) to invite kids to click on it).
Great idea, how about now?
[image: NewVariableDialog.png]
Cheers, Richo
Ed Team should think about Quick Guides on Variables, and perhaps balloon help when you mouse over the variable types.
Stephen
On Thu, Feb 9, 2012 at 12:01 PM, Ricardo Moran richi.moran@gmail.comwrote:
Hi,
I've made the following dialog using the PropertiesMorph as suggested.
[image: NewVariableDialog.png]
It opens by default when clicking on the "add new variable" button. I think this solution is better than the two modal dialogs and it also makes the different slot types a little more visible.
I attached a change set if you want to test it.
Cheers, Richo
On Wed, Feb 8, 2012 at 12:21 PM, Ricardo Moran richi.moran@gmail.comwrote:
This would be easy to do and it would be a great improvement, but I don't think this dialog should be open by request. If I understood correctly, the problem that originated this issue was that the slot types other than #Number were difficult to find, so hiding this dialog won't solve it.
Cheers, Richo
On Tue, Feb 7, 2012 at 3:07 PM, karl ramberg karlramberg@gmail.comwrote:
On Tue, Feb 7, 2012 at 5:31 PM, Steve Thomas sthomas1@gosargon.comwrote:
> On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 7:49 PM, Scott Wallace < > scott.wallace@squeakland.org> wrote: > >> Better, arguably, is to give a newly-launched variable a default >> name and a default value-type, and then also make it more straightforward >> and inviting to change the name and change the value-type, without needing >> to fish in menus. >> > Agreed. Something like: > [image: AddVariable I.png] > > or > > [image: AddVariable II.png] >
Nice.
Maybe we should use the PropertiesMorphs for this ?
Also some of the variable types have additional spec Number and Point have 'decimal places...' Player have 'tiles to get...' ( I'm not really familiar with this)
After reading Scotts mail I think this dialog should be presented by request, not by default. And that we bypass the 'FillInTheBlank' naming of variable in the first place ?
Karl
>> We did that a while ago in an internal vpri fork: add-variable >> gives you a variable with a default name and a value-type already provided; >> when and if desired, click on the variable name and text-edit to rename the >> variable; click on a little "value-type" icon to the right of the name to >> get a list of value-type choices. No modal roadblocks to getting started, >> no fishing in menus to make changes. >> >> This improves the work-flow of add-a-variable quite a bit, and >> might be a good thing for squeakland as well. However, it's probably too >> late in the development cycle of the imminent release to make such a change… > > Ideally we would have a group of kids we who could help test these > ideas. > > I don't see a problem with waiting at this point. > > Stephen > > _______________________________________________ > etoys-dev mailing list > etoys-dev@squeakland.org > http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys-dev > >
etoys-dev mailing list etoys-dev@squeakland.org http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys-dev
On Thu, Feb 9, 2012 at 8:34 PM, Ricardo Moran richi.moran@gmail.com wrote: , you're right. And we should add the "decimal places" if the selected type is number as well.
Yes
Number and Point have 'decimal places...' Player have 'tiles to get...' ( I'm not really familiar with this)
Karl
On Thu, Feb 9, 2012 at 4:24 PM, karl ramberg karlramberg@gmail.com wrote:
We should hook this up to the Viewer variable menu in Player slotInfoButtonHitFor:inViewer:
'rename' and 'change value type' could be replaced by this panel.( I'm not sure what to call it: Variable info ?)
I think it's good for consistency that we present just one panel to rename and choose variable type.
Karl
On Thu, Feb 9, 2012 at 7:53 PM, Ricardo Moran richi.moran@gmail.comwrote:
On Thu, Feb 9, 2012 at 2:10 PM, Steve Thomas sthomas1@gosargon.comwrote:
Nice, May want to add arrows to Type (similar to the way make sound scripting tile works) to invite kids to click on it).
Great idea, how about now?
[image: NewVariableDialog.png]
Cheers, Richo
Ed Team should think about Quick Guides on Variables, and perhaps balloon help when you mouse over the variable types.
Stephen
On Thu, Feb 9, 2012 at 12:01 PM, Ricardo Moran richi.moran@gmail.comwrote:
Hi,
I've made the following dialog using the PropertiesMorph as suggested.
[image: NewVariableDialog.png]
It opens by default when clicking on the "add new variable" button. I think this solution is better than the two modal dialogs and it also makes the different slot types a little more visible.
I attached a change set if you want to test it.
Cheers, Richo
On Wed, Feb 8, 2012 at 12:21 PM, Ricardo Moran richi.moran@gmail.comwrote:
This would be easy to do and it would be a great improvement, but I don't think this dialog should be open by request. If I understood correctly, the problem that originated this issue was that the slot types other than #Number were difficult to find, so hiding this dialog won't solve it.
Cheers, Richo
On Tue, Feb 7, 2012 at 3:07 PM, karl ramberg karlramberg@gmail.comwrote:
> > > On Tue, Feb 7, 2012 at 5:31 PM, Steve Thomas sthomas1@gosargon.comwrote: > >> On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 7:49 PM, Scott Wallace < >> scott.wallace@squeakland.org> wrote: >> >>> Better, arguably, is to give a newly-launched variable a default >>> name and a default value-type, and then also make it more straightforward >>> and inviting to change the name and change the value-type, without needing >>> to fish in menus. >>> >> Agreed. Something like: >> [image: AddVariable I.png] >> >> or >> >> [image: AddVariable II.png] >> > > > Nice. > > Maybe we should use the PropertiesMorphs for this ? > > Also some of the variable types have additional spec > Number and Point have 'decimal places...' > Player have 'tiles to get...' ( I'm not really familiar with this) > > After reading Scotts mail I think this dialog should be presented by > request, not by default. > And that we bypass the 'FillInTheBlank' naming of variable in the > first place ? > > Karl > > > >>> We did that a while ago in an internal vpri fork: add-variable >>> gives you a variable with a default name and a value-type already provided; >>> when and if desired, click on the variable name and text-edit to rename the >>> variable; click on a little "value-type" icon to the right of the name to >>> get a list of value-type choices. No modal roadblocks to getting started, >>> no fishing in menus to make changes. >>> >>> This improves the work-flow of add-a-variable quite a bit, and >>> might be a good thing for squeakland as well. However, it's probably too >>> late in the development cycle of the imminent release to make such a change… >> >> Ideally we would have a group of kids we who could help test these >> ideas. >> >> I don't see a problem with waiting at this point. >> >> Stephen >> >> _______________________________________________ >> etoys-dev mailing list >> etoys-dev@squeakland.org >> http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys-dev >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > etoys-dev mailing list > etoys-dev@squeakland.org > http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys-dev > >
On Feb 9, 2012, at 12:09 PM, karl ramberg wrote:
On Thu, Feb 9, 2012 at 8:34 PM, Ricardo Moran richi.moran@gmail.com wrote: , you're right. And we should add the "decimal places" if the selected type is number as well.
Yes
Number and Point have 'decimal places...' Player have 'tiles to get...' ( I'm not really familiar with this)
Karl
On Thu, Feb 9, 2012 at 4:24 PM, karl ramberg karlramberg@gmail.com wrote: We should hook this up to the Viewer variable menu in Player slotInfoButtonHitFor:inViewer:
'rename' and 'change value type' could be replaced by this panel.( I'm not sure what to call it: Variable info ?)
Ysy!
* The wording in the menu for the item that would bring up the panel could be "variable name and type" perhaps. Or just "name & type".
* When the panel is brought up for an already-existing variable, it should not show the wording "new variable". Maybe the title is superfluous even in the new-variable case?
* Expecting the panel completely to replace the pop-up menu is perhaps going too far at this time...
For one thing, there are items "simple watcher" and "detailed watcher" wanted for all variables, whether user-defined or built-in, and "remove variable" for user-defined variables, plus type-specific commands (as opposed to properties) desired for some variables, such as the "tiles to get…" for Player-valued variables.
And "types" can have have extra, type-specific, state, as Richo points out -- e.g. "decimal places" for Number-valued and Point-valued variables but *not* for any other types. Thus, what's in the panel, and indeed perhaps even the physical size and layout of the panel, might need to change each time a different value-type is selected in the panel.
Doing all this via a panel is not unthinkable but, but would certainly involve more work than just having the name and type be in the panel for now. Or perhaps the decimal-places item can be there, and can come or go depending on what the currently-chosen type is...
* If the panel does *not* completely replace the pop-up menu, then it seems we have two choices:
(a) have the name-and-type panel invoked by a "name & type" item in the pop-up menu, which replaces both "rename" and "change value type"
(b) in the viewer line, only for user-defined variables, add a separate little button, which you click on to get the name/type panel presented. In our vpri prototype, we used a small, downward-facing black triangle situated to the right of the variable name for a comparable feature.
* One last thing. As we all know, the user can provide a "balloon help" message for a user-defined script. I think we should provide such a feature also for user-defined variables. In fact, an earlier version of etoys did have such a feature, and there is even a place in the "SlotInformation" object that defines a user-defined variable, called "documentation", to store this balloon help. We would just need to add a UI for editing it (in the slot-information menu in the viewer) and then to make sure the user-specified balloon-help is used when construct items for the Viewer (in Player >> methodInterfacesForInstanceVariablesCategoryIn:). A nice little displacement-activity project for someone out there…. any takers?
This is all going in a great direction!
-- Scott
I think it's good for consistency that we present just one panel to rename and choose variable type.
Karl
On Thu, Feb 9, 2012 at 7:53 PM, Ricardo Moran richi.moran@gmail.com wrote:
On Thu, Feb 9, 2012 at 2:10 PM, Steve Thomas sthomas1@gosargon.com wrote: Nice, May want to add arrows to Type (similar to the way make sound scripting tile works) to invite kids to click on it).
Great idea, how about now?
Cheers, Richo
Ed Team should think about Quick Guides on Variables, and perhaps balloon help when you mouse over the variable types.
Stephen
On Thu, Feb 9, 2012 at 12:01 PM, Ricardo Moran richi.moran@gmail.com wrote: Hi,
I've made the following dialog using the PropertiesMorph as suggested.
<NewVariableDialog.png>
It opens by default when clicking on the "add new variable" button. I think this solution is better than the two modal dialogs and it also makes the different slot types a little more visible.
I attached a change set if you want to test it.
Cheers, Richo
On Wed, Feb 8, 2012 at 12:21 PM, Ricardo Moran richi.moran@gmail.com wrote: This would be easy to do and it would be a great improvement, but I don't think this dialog should be open by request. If I understood correctly, the problem that originated this issue was that the slot types other than #Number were difficult to find, so hiding this dialog won't solve it.
Cheers, Richo
On Tue, Feb 7, 2012 at 3:07 PM, karl ramberg karlramberg@gmail.com wrote:
On Tue, Feb 7, 2012 at 5:31 PM, Steve Thomas sthomas1@gosargon.com wrote: On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 7:49 PM, Scott Wallace scott.wallace@squeakland.org wrote: Better, arguably, is to give a newly-launched variable a default name and a default value-type, and then also make it more straightforward and inviting to change the name and change the value-type, without needing to fish in menus. Agreed. Something like:
<AddVariable I.png>
or
<AddVariable II.png>
Nice.
Maybe we should use the PropertiesMorphs for this ?
Also some of the variable types have additional spec Number and Point have 'decimal places...' Player have 'tiles to get...' ( I'm not really familiar with this)
After reading Scotts mail I think this dialog should be presented by request, not by default. And that we bypass the 'FillInTheBlank' naming of variable in the first place ?
Karl
We did that a while ago in an internal vpri fork: add-variable gives you a variable with a default name and a value-type already provided; when and if desired, click on the variable name and text-edit to rename the variable; click on a little "value-type" icon to the right of the name to get a list of value-type choices. No modal roadblocks to getting started, no fishing in menus to make changes.
This improves the work-flow of add-a-variable quite a bit, and might be a good thing for squeakland as well. However, it's probably too late in the development cycle of the imminent release to make such a change… Ideally we would have a group of kids we who could help test these ideas.
I don't see a problem with waiting at this point.
Stephen
On Feb 9, 2012, at 9:10 AM, Steve Thomas wrote:
Ed Team should think about Quick Guides on Variables, and perhaps balloon help when you mouse over the variable types.
Right -- and it would be very good if in the gallery or guides or *somewhere* we had examples illustrating use of every one of the types.
-- Sott
Hi,
I've made a partial update on the new dialog (change set attached). I haven't added the type-specific "decimal places" yet, but I replaced the menu items "rename <var>" and "change value type" with the item "change variable info...".
I also fixed the code a little, removed the title, and added a couple of #translated sends.
Cheers, Richo
On Thu, Feb 9, 2012 at 9:56 PM, Scott Wallace scott.wallace@squeakland.orgwrote:
On Feb 9, 2012, at 9:10 AM, Steve Thomas wrote:
Ed Team should think about Quick Guides on Variables, and perhaps
balloon help when you mouse over the variable types.
Right -- and it would be very good if in the gallery or guides or *somewhere* we had examples illustrating use of every one of the types.
-- Sott _______________________________________________ etoys-dev mailing list etoys-dev@squeakland.org http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys-dev
Sorry, the last change set had a bug when the slot was removed while the dialog was still open. I fixed it in this new change set.
Cheers, Richo
On Fri, Feb 10, 2012 at 6:41 PM, Ricardo Moran richi.moran@gmail.comwrote:
Hi,
I've made a partial update on the new dialog (change set attached). I haven't added the type-specific "decimal places" yet, but I replaced the menu items "rename <var>" and "change value type" with the item "change variable info...".
I also fixed the code a little, removed the title, and added a couple of #translated sends.
Cheers, Richo
On Thu, Feb 9, 2012 at 9:56 PM, Scott Wallace < scott.wallace@squeakland.org> wrote:
On Feb 9, 2012, at 9:10 AM, Steve Thomas wrote:
Ed Team should think about Quick Guides on Variables, and perhaps
balloon help when you mouse over the variable types.
Right -- and it would be very good if in the gallery or guides or *somewhere* we had examples illustrating use of every one of the types.
-- Sott _______________________________________________ etoys-dev mailing list etoys-dev@squeakland.org http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys-dev
Hi again, I've been working on the "decimal places" option and now I don't feel is a good idea because we would still have the "decimal places..." menu item in system-defined slots. I feel this wouldn't be very consistent. Maybe the dialog with just name & type would be good enough.
In any case, I attached the new change set for you to try.
Cheers, Richo
On Fri, Feb 10, 2012 at 6:44 PM, Ricardo Moran richi.moran@gmail.comwrote:
Sorry, the last change set had a bug when the slot was removed while the dialog was still open. I fixed it in this new change set.
Cheers, Richo
On Fri, Feb 10, 2012 at 6:41 PM, Ricardo Moran richi.moran@gmail.comwrote:
Hi,
I've made a partial update on the new dialog (change set attached). I haven't added the type-specific "decimal places" yet, but I replaced the menu items "rename <var>" and "change value type" with the item "change variable info...".
I also fixed the code a little, removed the title, and added a couple of #translated sends.
Cheers, Richo
On Thu, Feb 9, 2012 at 9:56 PM, Scott Wallace < scott.wallace@squeakland.org> wrote:
On Feb 9, 2012, at 9:10 AM, Steve Thomas wrote:
Ed Team should think about Quick Guides on Variables, and perhaps
balloon help when you mouse over the variable types.
Right -- and it would be very good if in the gallery or guides or *somewhere* we had examples illustrating use of every one of the types.
-- Sott _______________________________________________ etoys-dev mailing list etoys-dev@squeakland.org http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys-dev
On Feb 10, 2012, at 2:45 PM, Ricardo Moran wrote:
Hi again, I've been working on the "decimal places" option and now I don't feel is a good idea because we would still have the "decimal places..." menu item in system-defined slots. I feel this wouldn't be very consistent. Maybe the dialog with just name & type would be good enough.
Arguably yes... However, since you've already done the work to have the decimal-places element come and go in the panel, depending on the type chosen, and since its presence in the panel helps make users conscious of the "decimal places" feature, which they might otherwise not be aware of, maybe we should keep it there...
In any case, this is an excellent and timely and really welcome piece of work, Richo -- yay!
Any comments from Ed Team about this?
-- Scott
In any case, I attached the new change set for you to try.
Cheers, Richo
On Fri, Feb 10, 2012 at 6:44 PM, Ricardo Moran richi.moran@gmail.com wrote: Sorry, the last change set had a bug when the slot was removed while the dialog was still open. I fixed it in this new change set.
Cheers, Richo
On Fri, Feb 10, 2012 at 6:41 PM, Ricardo Moran richi.moran@gmail.com wrote: Hi,
I've made a partial update on the new dialog (change set attached). I haven't added the type-specific "decimal places" yet, but I replaced the menu items "rename <var>" and "change value type" with the item "change variable info...".
I also fixed the code a little, removed the title, and added a couple of #translated sends.
Cheers, Richo
On Thu, Feb 9, 2012 at 9:56 PM, Scott Wallace scott.wallace@squeakland.org wrote: On Feb 9, 2012, at 9:10 AM, Steve Thomas wrote:
Ed Team should think about Quick Guides on Variables, and perhaps balloon help when you mouse over the variable types.
Right -- and it would be very good if in the gallery or guides or *somewhere* we had examples illustrating use of every one of the types.
-- Sott _______________________________________________ etoys-dev mailing list etoys-dev@squeakland.org http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys-dev
<NewVariable2.4.cs>
On Fri, Feb 10, 2012 at 6:41 PM, Scott Wallace <scott.wallace@squeakland.org
wrote:
On Feb 10, 2012, at 2:45 PM, Ricardo Moran wrote:
Hi again, I've been working on the "decimal places" option and now I don't feel is a good idea because we would still have the "decimal places..." menu item in system-defined slots. I feel this wouldn't be very consistent. Maybe the dialog with just name & type would be good enough.
Arguably yes... However, since you've already done the work to have the decimal-places element come and go in the panel, depending on the type chosen, and since its presence in the panel helps make users conscious of the "decimal places" feature, which they might otherwise not be aware of, maybe we should keep it there...
In any case, this is an excellent and timely and really welcome piece of work, Richo -- yay!
Any comments from Ed Team about this?
Comments :
1. Richo Rocks 2. When when I click on the *Type* - a new window pops up, which I find visually distracting 1. Having something similar to clicking on the sound tile in a "make sound" tile in a scriptor is better 2. A further improvement would be something more like a drop down menu, where the colors don't change and as you mouse over the selections they are highlighted. 3. I like the showing of decimal places when you select number. Consistency and minimalism are great (but not always best for new learners) 4. I would put back the title bar "Add Variable" as it is not obvious what the downward pointing pink arrow does (ah the curse of knowledge when the expert is trying to teach the novice)
Finally my dear Ricardo, you may wish to consider heading the advise of Ben Franklin to Thomas Jefferson when he was drafting the Decleration of Independence: "*I have made a rule, whenever in my power, to avoid becoming the draughtsman of papers to be reviewed by a public body*. I took my lesson from an incident which I will relate to you. When I was a journeyman printer, one of my companions, an apprentice hatter, having served out his time, was about to open shop for himself. His first concern was to have a handsome signboard, with a proper inscription. He composed it in these words, 'John Thompson, Hatter, makes and sells hats for ready money,' with a figure of a hat subjoined. But thought he would submit it to his friends for their amendments. The first he showed it to thought the word 'Hatter' tautologous, because followed by the words 'makes hats,' which showed he was a hatter. It was struck out. The next observed that the word 'makes' might as well be omitted, because his customers would not care who made the hats. If good and to their mind, they would buy them, by whomsoever made. He struck it out. A third said he thought the words 'for ready money' were useless, as it was not the custom of the place to sell on credit. Every one who purchased expected to pay. They were parted with, and the inscription now stood, 'John Thompson sells hats.' 'Sells hats!' says the next friend. 'Why, nobody will expect you to give them away. What then is the use of that word?' It was stricken out, and 'hats' followed it, the rather as there was one painted on the board. So the inscription was reduced ultimately to 'John Thompson,' with the figure of a hat subjoined."
Stephen
On Sat, Feb 11, 2012 at 1:30 PM, Steve Thomas sthomas1@gosargon.com wrote:
On Fri, Feb 10, 2012 at 6:41 PM, Scott Wallace scott.wallace@squeakland.org wrote:
On Feb 10, 2012, at 2:45 PM, Ricardo Moran wrote:
Hi again, I've been working on the "decimal places" option and now I don't feel is a good idea because we would still have the "decimal places..." menu item in system-defined slots. I feel this wouldn't be very consistent. Maybe the dialog with just name & type would be good enough.
Arguably yes... However, since you've already done the work to have the decimal-places element come and go in the panel, depending on the type chosen, and since its presence in the panel helps make users conscious of the "decimal places" feature, which they might otherwise not be aware of, maybe we should keep it there...
In any case, this is an excellent and timely and really welcome piece of work, Richo -- yay!
Any comments from Ed Team about this?
Comments :
Richo Rocks When when I click on the Type - a new window pops up, which I find visually distracting
Having something similar to clicking on the sound tile in a "make sound" tile in a scriptor is better
The difference is that the variable menu has a 'header'. I like that it tells what it is that you are supposed to do with these abstract entities that change what the variable means. The sounds menu is a little simpler because they are just sound names, no semantic change.
Karl
A further improvement would be something more like a drop down menu, where the colors don't change and as you mouse over the selections they are highlighted.
I like the showing of decimal places when you select number. Consistency and minimalism are great (but not always best for new learners) I would put back the title bar "Add Variable" as it is not obvious what the downward pointing pink arrow does (ah the curse of knowledge when the expert is trying to teach the novice)
Finally my dear Ricardo, you may wish to consider heading the advise of Ben Franklin to Thomas Jefferson when he was drafting the Decleration of Independence: "I have made a rule, whenever in my power, to avoid becoming the draughtsman of papers to be reviewed by a public body. I took my lesson from an incident which I will relate to you. When I was a journeyman printer, one of my companions, an apprentice hatter, having served out his time, was about to open shop for himself. His first concern was to have a handsome signboard, with a proper inscription. He composed it in these words, 'John Thompson, Hatter, makes and sells hats for ready money,' with a figure of a hat subjoined. But thought he would submit it to his friends for their amendments. The first he showed it to thought the word 'Hatter' tautologous, because followed by the words 'makes hats,' which showed he was a hatter. It was struck out. The next observed that the word 'makes' might as well be omitted, because his customers would not care who made the hats. If good and to their mind, they would buy them, by whomsoever made. He struck it out. A third said he thought the words 'for ready money' were useless, as it was not the custom of the place to sell on credit. Every one who purchased expected to pay. They were parted with, and the inscription now stood, 'John Thompson sells hats.' 'Sells hats!' says the next friend. 'Why, nobody will expect you to give them away. What then is the use of that word?' It was stricken out, and 'hats' followed it, the rather as there was one painted on the board. So the inscription was reduced ultimately to 'John Thompson,' with the figure of a hat subjoined."
Stephen
etoys-dev mailing list etoys-dev@squeakland.org http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys-dev
Hi,
I've attached a new version with the following few changes:
- I put the title back as suggested by Steve. I didn't realize the "add new variable" button wasn't obvious for a newcomer. Also, the title is different if you're adding a new variable or modifying an existing one. - I kept the header for the "change type" menu. I agree with Karl in that the menu title here adds information that is not necessary in the "make sound" example. However, it won't be difficult to take it out if that's the majority's preference. As Steve suggested, a drop down menu would be ideal but also more work :) - I renamed the menu item "change variable info..." to simply "modify <var>" and I took out the "decimal places" item for user slots.
As for Subbu's suggestion, I'm not sure that's a good direction. I've always suspected of systems who try to be more intelligent than me by inferring information based on my behavior :)
And regarding Steve's parable, I'm not sure I get the moral of the story, but I think getting reviewed by a lot of people is good, even though I have to see my work criticised a lot :)
Cheers, Richo
On Sun, Feb 12, 2012 at 5:30 PM, karl ramberg karlramberg@gmail.com wrote:
On Sat, Feb 11, 2012 at 1:30 PM, Steve Thomas sthomas1@gosargon.com wrote:
On Fri, Feb 10, 2012 at 6:41 PM, Scott Wallace scott.wallace@squeakland.org wrote:
On Feb 10, 2012, at 2:45 PM, Ricardo Moran wrote:
Hi again, I've been working on the "decimal places" option and now I
don't
feel is a good idea because we would still have the "decimal places..."
menu
item in system-defined slots. I feel this wouldn't be very consistent.
Maybe
the dialog with just name & type would be good enough.
Arguably yes... However, since you've already done the work to have the decimal-places element come and go in the panel, depending on the type chosen, and since its presence in the panel helps make users conscious
of
the "decimal places" feature, which they might otherwise not be aware
of,
maybe we should keep it there...
In any case, this is an excellent and timely and really welcome piece of work, Richo -- yay!
Any comments from Ed Team about this?
Comments :
Richo Rocks When when I click on the Type - a new window pops up, which I find
visually
distracting
Having something similar to clicking on the sound tile in a "make sound" tile in a scriptor is better
The difference is that the variable menu has a 'header'. I like that it tells what it is that you are supposed to do with these abstract entities that change what the variable means. The sounds menu is a little simpler because they are just sound names, no semantic change.
Karl
A further improvement would be something more like a drop down menu,
where
the colors don't change and as you mouse over the selections they are highlighted.
I like the showing of decimal places when you select number. Consistency and minimalism are great (but not always best for new learners) I would put back the title bar "Add Variable" as it is not obvious what
the
downward pointing pink arrow does (ah the curse of knowledge when the
expert
is trying to teach the novice)
Finally my dear Ricardo, you may wish to consider heading the advise of
Ben
Franklin to Thomas Jefferson when he was drafting the Decleration of Independence: "I have made a rule, whenever in my power, to avoid becoming the
draughtsman
of papers to be reviewed by a public body. I took my lesson from an
incident
which I will relate to you. When I was a journeyman printer, one of my companions, an apprentice hatter, having served out his time, was about
to
open shop for himself. His first concern was to have a handsome
signboard,
with a proper inscription. He composed it in these words, 'John Thompson, Hatter, makes and sells hats for ready money,' with a figure of a hat subjoined. But thought he would submit it to his friends for their amendments. The first he showed it to thought the word 'Hatter'
tautologous,
because followed by the words 'makes hats,' which showed he was a
hatter. It
was struck out. The next observed that the word 'makes' might as well be omitted, because his customers would not care who made the hats. If good
and
to their mind, they would buy them, by whomsoever made. He struck it
out. A
third said he thought the words 'for ready money' were useless, as it was not the custom of the place to sell on credit. Every one who purchased expected to pay. They were parted with, and the inscription now stood,
'John
Thompson sells hats.' 'Sells hats!' says the next friend. 'Why, nobody
will
expect you to give them away. What then is the use of that word?' It was stricken out, and 'hats' followed it, the rather as there was one
painted on
the board. So the inscription was reduced ultimately to 'John Thompson,' with the figure of a hat subjoined."
Stephen
etoys-dev mailing list etoys-dev@squeakland.org http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys-dev
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On Tue, Feb 14, 2012 at 8:56 PM, Ricardo Moran richi.moran@gmail.com wrote:
Hi,
I've attached a new version with the following few changes:
I put the title back as suggested by Steve. I didn't realize the "add new variable" button wasn't obvious for a newcomer. Also, the title is different if you're adding a new variable or modifying an existing one. I kept the header for the "change type" menu. I agree with Karl in that the menu title here adds information that is not necessary in the "make sound" example. However, it won't be difficult to take it out if that's the majority's preference. As Steve suggested, a drop down menu would be ideal but also more work :) I renamed the menu item "change variable info..." to simply "modify <var>" and I took out the "decimal places" item for user slots.
As for Subbu's suggestion, I'm not sure that's a good direction. I've always suspected of systems who try to be more intelligent than me by inferring information based on my behavior :)
And regarding Steve's parable, I'm not sure I get the moral of the story, but I think getting reviewed by a lot of people is good, even though I have to see my work criticised a lot :)
I think Steve's story means that if you just listen and do what others think the result will be that you do nothing.
This work should be included in next release :-)
I found a issue with variable type sound I says 'no value' and I can't drop a sound tile to it. Do you have a suggestion ?
Karl
Cheers, Richo
On Sun, Feb 12, 2012 at 5:30 PM, karl ramberg karlramberg@gmail.com wrote:
On Sat, Feb 11, 2012 at 1:30 PM, Steve Thomas sthomas1@gosargon.com wrote:
On Fri, Feb 10, 2012 at 6:41 PM, Scott Wallace scott.wallace@squeakland.org wrote:
On Feb 10, 2012, at 2:45 PM, Ricardo Moran wrote:
Hi again, I've been working on the "decimal places" option and now I don't feel is a good idea because we would still have the "decimal places..." menu item in system-defined slots. I feel this wouldn't be very consistent. Maybe the dialog with just name & type would be good enough.
Arguably yes... However, since you've already done the work to have the decimal-places element come and go in the panel, depending on the type chosen, and since its presence in the panel helps make users conscious of the "decimal places" feature, which they might otherwise not be aware of, maybe we should keep it there...
In any case, this is an excellent and timely and really welcome piece of work, Richo -- yay!
Any comments from Ed Team about this?
Comments :
Richo Rocks When when I click on the Type - a new window pops up, which I find visually distracting
Having something similar to clicking on the sound tile in a "make sound" tile in a scriptor is better
The difference is that the variable menu has a 'header'. I like that it tells what it is that you are supposed to do with these abstract entities that change what the variable means. The sounds menu is a little simpler because they are just sound names, no semantic change.
Karl
A further improvement would be something more like a drop down menu, where the colors don't change and as you mouse over the selections they are highlighted.
I like the showing of decimal places when you select number. Consistency and minimalism are great (but not always best for new learners) I would put back the title bar "Add Variable" as it is not obvious what the downward pointing pink arrow does (ah the curse of knowledge when the expert is trying to teach the novice)
Finally my dear Ricardo, you may wish to consider heading the advise of Ben Franklin to Thomas Jefferson when he was drafting the Decleration of Independence: "I have made a rule, whenever in my power, to avoid becoming the draughtsman of papers to be reviewed by a public body. I took my lesson from an incident which I will relate to you. When I was a journeyman printer, one of my companions, an apprentice hatter, having served out his time, was about to open shop for himself. His first concern was to have a handsome signboard, with a proper inscription. He composed it in these words, 'John Thompson, Hatter, makes and sells hats for ready money,' with a figure of a hat subjoined. But thought he would submit it to his friends for their amendments. The first he showed it to thought the word 'Hatter' tautologous, because followed by the words 'makes hats,' which showed he was a hatter. It was struck out. The next observed that the word 'makes' might as well be omitted, because his customers would not care who made the hats. If good and to their mind, they would buy them, by whomsoever made. He struck it out. A third said he thought the words 'for ready money' were useless, as it was not the custom of the place to sell on credit. Every one who purchased expected to pay. They were parted with, and the inscription now stood, 'John Thompson sells hats.' 'Sells hats!' says the next friend. 'Why, nobody will expect you to give them away. What then is the use of that word?' It was stricken out, and 'hats' followed it, the rather as there was one painted on the board. So the inscription was reduced ultimately to 'John Thompson,' with the figure of a hat subjoined."
Stephen
etoys-dev mailing list etoys-dev@squeakland.org http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys-dev
etoys-dev mailing list etoys-dev@squeakland.org http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys-dev
On Wed, Feb 15, 2012 at 4:39 PM, karl ramberg karlramberg@gmail.com wrote: (...)
I think Steve's story means that if you just listen and do what others think the result will be that you do nothing.
Oh, thanks for the explanation :)
This work should be included in next release :-)
I found a issue with variable type sound I says 'no value' and I can't drop a sound tile to it. Do you have a suggestion ?
That's weird, my image makes a valid slot but if I load the change set in a 4.1 image I get the same error. I'll look at it and then I'll directly commit the changes to etoys if you agree.
Cheers, Richo
Karl
Cheers, Richo
On Sun, Feb 12, 2012 at 5:30 PM, karl ramberg karlramberg@gmail.com
wrote:
On Sat, Feb 11, 2012 at 1:30 PM, Steve Thomas sthomas1@gosargon.com wrote:
On Fri, Feb 10, 2012 at 6:41 PM, Scott Wallace scott.wallace@squeakland.org wrote:
On Feb 10, 2012, at 2:45 PM, Ricardo Moran wrote:
Hi again, I've been working on the "decimal places" option and now I don't feel is a good idea because we would still have the "decimal
places..."
menu item in system-defined slots. I feel this wouldn't be very
consistent.
Maybe the dialog with just name & type would be good enough.
Arguably yes... However, since you've already done the work to have
the
decimal-places element come and go in the panel, depending on the
type
chosen, and since its presence in the panel helps make users
conscious
of the "decimal places" feature, which they might otherwise not be aware of, maybe we should keep it there...
In any case, this is an excellent and timely and really welcome piece of work, Richo -- yay!
Any comments from Ed Team about this?
Comments :
Richo Rocks When when I click on the Type - a new window pops up, which I find visually distracting
Having something similar to clicking on the sound tile in a "make
sound"
tile in a scriptor is better
The difference is that the variable menu has a 'header'. I like that it tells what it is that you are supposed to do with these abstract entities that change what the variable means. The sounds menu is a little simpler because they are just sound names, no semantic change.
Karl
A further improvement would be something more like a drop down menu, where the colors don't change and as you mouse over the selections they are highlighted.
I like the showing of decimal places when you select number. Consistency and minimalism are great (but not always best for new learners) I would put back the title bar "Add Variable" as it is not obvious
what
the downward pointing pink arrow does (ah the curse of knowledge when the expert is trying to teach the novice)
Finally my dear Ricardo, you may wish to consider heading the advise
of
Ben Franklin to Thomas Jefferson when he was drafting the Decleration of Independence: "I have made a rule, whenever in my power, to avoid becoming the draughtsman of papers to be reviewed by a public body. I took my lesson from an incident which I will relate to you. When I was a journeyman printer, one of my companions, an apprentice hatter, having served out his time, was
about
to open shop for himself. His first concern was to have a handsome signboard, with a proper inscription. He composed it in these words, 'John Thompson, Hatter, makes and sells hats for ready money,' with a figure of a hat subjoined. But thought he would submit it to his friends for their amendments. The first he showed it to thought the word 'Hatter' tautologous, because followed by the words 'makes hats,' which showed he was a hatter. It was struck out. The next observed that the word 'makes' might as well
be
omitted, because his customers would not care who made the hats. If
good
and to their mind, they would buy them, by whomsoever made. He struck it out. A third said he thought the words 'for ready money' were useless, as it was not the custom of the place to sell on credit. Every one who purchased expected to pay. They were parted with, and the inscription now stood, 'John Thompson sells hats.' 'Sells hats!' says the next friend. 'Why, nobody will expect you to give them away. What then is the use of that word?' It
was
stricken out, and 'hats' followed it, the rather as there was one painted on the board. So the inscription was reduced ultimately to 'John
Thompson,'
with the figure of a hat subjoined."
Stephen
etoys-dev mailing list etoys-dev@squeakland.org http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys-dev
etoys-dev mailing list etoys-dev@squeakland.org http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys-dev
I think I found the bug. It seems when I look for the selected type I take the vocabulary named as the button's label, which is translated, in my case to "Sonido". So no initial value is found for this unknown vocabulary. I fixed it in Etoys-Richo.106
Cheers, Richo
On Wed, Feb 15, 2012 at 4:48 PM, Ricardo Moran richi.moran@gmail.comwrote:
On Wed, Feb 15, 2012 at 4:39 PM, karl ramberg karlramberg@gmail.comwrote: (...)
I think Steve's story means that if you just listen and do what others think the result will be that you do nothing.
Oh, thanks for the explanation :)
This work should be included in next release :-)
I found a issue with variable type sound I says 'no value' and I can't drop a sound tile to it. Do you have a suggestion ?
That's weird, my image makes a valid slot but if I load the change set in a 4.1 image I get the same error. I'll look at it and then I'll directly commit the changes to etoys if you agree.
Cheers, Richo
Karl
Cheers, Richo
On Sun, Feb 12, 2012 at 5:30 PM, karl ramberg karlramberg@gmail.com
wrote:
On Sat, Feb 11, 2012 at 1:30 PM, Steve Thomas sthomas1@gosargon.com wrote:
On Fri, Feb 10, 2012 at 6:41 PM, Scott Wallace scott.wallace@squeakland.org wrote:
On Feb 10, 2012, at 2:45 PM, Ricardo Moran wrote:
Hi again, I've been working on the "decimal places" option and now I don't feel is a good idea because we would still have the "decimal
places..."
menu item in system-defined slots. I feel this wouldn't be very
consistent.
Maybe the dialog with just name & type would be good enough.
Arguably yes... However, since you've already done the work to have
the
decimal-places element come and go in the panel, depending on the
type
chosen, and since its presence in the panel helps make users
conscious
of the "decimal places" feature, which they might otherwise not be
aware
of, maybe we should keep it there...
In any case, this is an excellent and timely and really welcome
piece
of work, Richo -- yay!
Any comments from Ed Team about this?
Comments :
Richo Rocks When when I click on the Type - a new window pops up, which I find visually distracting
Having something similar to clicking on the sound tile in a "make
sound"
tile in a scriptor is better
The difference is that the variable menu has a 'header'. I like that it tells what it is that you are supposed to do with these abstract entities that change what the variable means. The sounds menu is a little simpler because they are just sound names, no semantic change.
Karl
A further improvement would be something more like a drop down menu, where the colors don't change and as you mouse over the selections they are highlighted.
I like the showing of decimal places when you select number. Consistency and minimalism are great (but not always best for new learners) I would put back the title bar "Add Variable" as it is not obvious
what
the downward pointing pink arrow does (ah the curse of knowledge when the expert is trying to teach the novice)
Finally my dear Ricardo, you may wish to consider heading the advise
of
Ben Franklin to Thomas Jefferson when he was drafting the Decleration of Independence: "I have made a rule, whenever in my power, to avoid becoming the draughtsman of papers to be reviewed by a public body. I took my lesson from an incident which I will relate to you. When I was a journeyman printer, one of
my
companions, an apprentice hatter, having served out his time, was
about
to open shop for himself. His first concern was to have a handsome signboard, with a proper inscription. He composed it in these words, 'John Thompson, Hatter, makes and sells hats for ready money,' with a figure of a hat subjoined. But thought he would submit it to his friends for their amendments. The first he showed it to thought the word 'Hatter' tautologous, because followed by the words 'makes hats,' which showed he was a hatter. It was struck out. The next observed that the word 'makes' might as
well be
omitted, because his customers would not care who made the hats. If
good
and to their mind, they would buy them, by whomsoever made. He struck it out. A third said he thought the words 'for ready money' were useless, as it was not the custom of the place to sell on credit. Every one who
purchased
expected to pay. They were parted with, and the inscription now
stood,
'John Thompson sells hats.' 'Sells hats!' says the next friend. 'Why,
nobody
will expect you to give them away. What then is the use of that word?' It
was
stricken out, and 'hats' followed it, the rather as there was one painted on the board. So the inscription was reduced ultimately to 'John
Thompson,'
with the figure of a hat subjoined."
Stephen
etoys-dev mailing list etoys-dev@squeakland.org http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys-dev
etoys-dev mailing list etoys-dev@squeakland.org http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys-dev
On Wed, Feb 15, 2012 at 9:09 PM, Ricardo Moran richi.moran@gmail.com wrote:
I think I found the bug. It seems when I look for the selected type I take the vocabulary named as the button's label, which is translated, in my case to "Sonido". So no initial value is found for this unknown vocabulary. I fixed it in Etoys-Richo.106
Cheers, Richo
Great !
Karl
On Wed, Feb 15, 2012 at 4:48 PM, Ricardo Moran richi.moran@gmail.com wrote:
On Wed, Feb 15, 2012 at 4:39 PM, karl ramberg karlramberg@gmail.com wrote: (...)
I think Steve's story means that if you just listen and do what others think the result will be that you do nothing.
Oh, thanks for the explanation :)
This work should be included in next release :-)
I found a issue with variable type sound I says 'no value' and I can't drop a sound tile to it. Do you have a suggestion ?
That's weird, my image makes a valid slot but if I load the change set in a 4.1 image I get the same error. I'll look at it and then I'll directly commit the changes to etoys if you agree.
Cheers, Richo
Karl
Cheers, Richo
On Sun, Feb 12, 2012 at 5:30 PM, karl ramberg karlramberg@gmail.com wrote:
On Sat, Feb 11, 2012 at 1:30 PM, Steve Thomas sthomas1@gosargon.com wrote:
On Fri, Feb 10, 2012 at 6:41 PM, Scott Wallace scott.wallace@squeakland.org wrote: > > On Feb 10, 2012, at 2:45 PM, Ricardo Moran wrote: > > Hi again, I've been working on the "decimal places" option and now > I > don't > feel is a good idea because we would still have the "decimal > places..." > menu > item in system-defined slots. I feel this wouldn't be very > consistent. > Maybe > the dialog with just name & type would be good enough. > > > Arguably yes... However, since you've already done the work to have > the > decimal-places element come and go in the panel, depending on the > type > chosen, and since its presence in the panel helps make users > conscious > of > the "decimal places" feature, which they might otherwise not be > aware > of, > maybe we should keep it there... > > In any case, this is an excellent and timely and really welcome > piece > of > work, Richo -- yay! > > Any comments from Ed Team about this?
Comments :
Richo Rocks When when I click on the Type - a new window pops up, which I find visually distracting
Having something similar to clicking on the sound tile in a "make sound" tile in a scriptor is better
The difference is that the variable menu has a 'header'. I like that it tells what it is that you are supposed to do with these abstract entities that change what the variable means. The sounds menu is a little simpler because they are just sound names, no semantic change.
Karl
A further improvement would be something more like a drop down menu, where the colors don't change and as you mouse over the selections they are highlighted.
I like the showing of decimal places when you select number. Consistency and minimalism are great (but not always best for new learners) I would put back the title bar "Add Variable" as it is not obvious what the downward pointing pink arrow does (ah the curse of knowledge when the expert is trying to teach the novice)
Finally my dear Ricardo, you may wish to consider heading the advise of Ben Franklin to Thomas Jefferson when he was drafting the Decleration of Independence: "I have made a rule, whenever in my power, to avoid becoming the draughtsman of papers to be reviewed by a public body. I took my lesson from an incident which I will relate to you. When I was a journeyman printer, one of my companions, an apprentice hatter, having served out his time, was about to open shop for himself. His first concern was to have a handsome signboard, with a proper inscription. He composed it in these words, 'John Thompson, Hatter, makes and sells hats for ready money,' with a figure of a hat subjoined. But thought he would submit it to his friends for their amendments. The first he showed it to thought the word 'Hatter' tautologous, because followed by the words 'makes hats,' which showed he was a hatter. It was struck out. The next observed that the word 'makes' might as well be omitted, because his customers would not care who made the hats. If good and to their mind, they would buy them, by whomsoever made. He struck it out. A third said he thought the words 'for ready money' were useless, as it was not the custom of the place to sell on credit. Every one who purchased expected to pay. They were parted with, and the inscription now stood, 'John Thompson sells hats.' 'Sells hats!' says the next friend. 'Why, nobody will expect you to give them away. What then is the use of that word?' It was stricken out, and 'hats' followed it, the rather as there was one painted on the board. So the inscription was reduced ultimately to 'John Thompson,' with the figure of a hat subjoined."
Stephen
etoys-dev mailing list etoys-dev@squeakland.org http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys-dev
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On Sat, Feb 11, 2012 at 12:41 AM, Scott Wallace scott.wallace@squeakland.org wrote:
On Feb 10, 2012, at 2:45 PM, Ricardo Moran wrote:
Hi again, I've been working on the "decimal places" option and now I don't feel is a good idea because we would still have the "decimal places..." menu item in system-defined slots. I feel this wouldn't be very consistent. Maybe the dialog with just name & type would be good enough.
Arguably yes... However, since you've already done the work to have the decimal-places element come and go in the panel, depending on the type chosen, and since its presence in the panel helps make users conscious of the "decimal places" feature, which they might otherwise not be aware of, maybe we should keep it there...
In any case, this is an excellent and timely and really welcome piece of work, Richo -- yay!
I can only chime in to say my yay as well. Great work Richo.
Karl
Any comments from Ed Team about this?
-- Scott
In any case, I attached the new change set for you to try.
Cheers, Richo
On Fri, Feb 10, 2012 at 6:44 PM, Ricardo Moran richi.moran@gmail.com wrote:
Sorry, the last change set had a bug when the slot was removed while the dialog was still open. I fixed it in this new change set.
Cheers, Richo
On Fri, Feb 10, 2012 at 6:41 PM, Ricardo Moran richi.moran@gmail.com wrote:
Hi,
I've made a partial update on the new dialog (change set attached). I haven't added the type-specific "decimal places" yet, but I replaced the menu items "rename <var>" and "change value type" with the item "change variable info...".
I also fixed the code a little, removed the title, and added a couple of #translated sends.
Cheers, Richo
On Thu, Feb 9, 2012 at 9:56 PM, Scott Wallace scott.wallace@squeakland.org wrote:
On Feb 9, 2012, at 9:10 AM, Steve Thomas wrote:
Ed Team should think about Quick Guides on Variables, and perhaps balloon help when you mouse over the variable types.
Right -- and it would be very good if in the gallery or guides or *somewhere* we had examples illustrating use of every one of the types.
-- Sott _______________________________________________ etoys-dev mailing list etoys-dev@squeakland.org http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys-dev
<NewVariable2.4.cs>
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On Saturday 11 Feb 2012 4:15:37 AM Ricardo Moran wrote:
Hi again, I've been working on the "decimal places" option and now I don't feel is a good idea because we would still have the "decimal places..." menu item in system-defined slots. I feel this wouldn't be very consistent. Maybe the dialog with just name & type would be good enough.
Ricardo,
Thank you for your efforts in improving the newvar dialog. It is evolving nicely.
I just have one observation for your consideration (keeping Steve's parable in mind ;-)).
If the dialog is designed with two entry fields and one hint field like this: Name InitialValue Type [var] [value] <valuetype>
Where the initial value can either be entered directly as number/text or by accepting a drop of an existing morph. The variables type and other attributes can be guessed based on this value (e.g. entering "true" or "True" will change the value type to Boolean).
This will be tricky to implement but the result will be more intuitive for children.
Regards .. Subbu
etoys-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org
-
K. K. Subramaniam -
karl ramberg -
Ricardo Moran -
Scott Wallace -
Steve Thomas