Begin forwarded message:
From: Bert Freudenberg bert@freudenbergs.de Date: 29. Oktober 2009 08:39:11 GMT-04:00 To: Hilaire Fernandes hilaire.fernandes@edu.ge.ch Cc: OLPC Devel devel@laptop.org Subject: Re: Sharing files among several XO
On 29.10.2009, at 02:47, Hilaire Fernandes wrote:
Under Etoys, If I keep down the mouse button and choose "Save under another name" (I am not sure about the exact message), and save the project with another name, then in the journal the previous instance of the project is replaced with this new one. I will check again tonight.
Note: Pay attention I am not just using the Keep button
Why?!
Simply stop Etoys to save to the Journal, overwriting the previous entry.
Simply click the Keep button to create a new entry in the Journal.
Simply edit the name in the Etoys toolbar to rename. Or rename in the Journal.
The hidden save menu options let you save to a file or upload to the Squeakland website. They do not save to the Journal. They are hidden for a reason.
- Bert -
If anybody has ideas on how to avoid misconceptions like above, let's hear them.
- Bert -
On Thu, Oct 29, 2009 at 8:57 AM, Bert Freudenberg bert@freudenbergs.de wrote:
Begin forwarded message:
From: Bert Freudenberg bert@freudenbergs.de Date: 29. Oktober 2009 08:39:11 GMT-04:00 To: Hilaire Fernandes hilaire.fernandes@edu.ge.ch Cc: OLPC Devel devel@laptop.org Subject: Re: Sharing files among several XO
On 29.10.2009, at 02:47, Hilaire Fernandes wrote:
Under Etoys, If I keep down the mouse button and choose "Save under another name" (I am not sure about the exact message), and save the project with another name, then in the journal the previous instance of the project is replaced with this new one. I will check again tonight.
Note: Pay attention I am not just using the Keep button
Why?!
Simply stop Etoys to save to the Journal, overwriting the previous entry.
Simply click the Keep button to create a new entry in the Journal.
Simply edit the name in the Etoys toolbar to rename. Or rename in the Journal.
The hidden save menu options let you save to a file or upload to the Squeakland website. They do not save to the Journal. They are hidden for a reason.
- Bert -
If anybody has ideas on how to avoid misconceptions like above, let's hear them.
I think that if the Sugar sharing and versioning were working better, then this problem/misconception would never have arisen. 0.84/86 addresses many of the sharing issues. We'll be discussing versioning in Bolzano as part of our 0.88 plans. The good news is that OLPC seems to be motivated to get 0.86 onto the XO 1.5 machines.
- Bert -
etoys-dev mailing list etoys-dev@squeakland.org http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys-dev
-walter
On 29.10.2009, at 09:03, Walter Bender wrote:
On Thu, Oct 29, 2009 at 8:57 AM, Bert Freudenberg <bert@freudenbergs.de
wrote: Begin forwarded message:
From: Bert Freudenberg bert@freudenbergs.de Date: 29. Oktober 2009 08:39:11 GMT-04:00 To: Hilaire Fernandes hilaire.fernandes@edu.ge.ch Cc: OLPC Devel devel@laptop.org Subject: Re: Sharing files among several XO
On 29.10.2009, at 02:47, Hilaire Fernandes wrote:
Under Etoys, If I keep down the mouse button and choose "Save under another name" (I am not sure about the exact message), and save the project with another name, then in the journal the previous instance of the project is replaced with this new one. I will check again tonight.
Note: Pay attention I am not just using the Keep button
Why?!
Simply stop Etoys to save to the Journal, overwriting the previous entry.
Simply click the Keep button to create a new entry in the Journal.
Simply edit the name in the Etoys toolbar to rename. Or rename in the Journal.
The hidden save menu options let you save to a file or upload to the Squeakland website. They do not save to the Journal. They are hidden for a reason.
- Bert -
If anybody has ideas on how to avoid misconceptions like above, let's hear them.
I think that if the Sugar sharing and versioning were working better, then this problem/misconception would never have arisen. 0.84/86 addresses many of the sharing issues. We'll be discussing versioning in Bolzano as part of our 0.88 plans. The good news is that OLPC seems to be motivated to get 0.86 onto the XO 1.5 machines.
-walter
How would that address the differences between using Etoys on a machine with a user-managed file system and Etoys on Sugar with automatic saving?
Are you suggesting that when running under Sugar, we should disable Etoys' ability to work with the filesystem directly? What Hilaire ran into is that he accidentally used the lower-level filesystem interface instead of the higher-level Journal interface.
- Bert -
Btw, it is likely kids may not have this misconception as they may have not initial conception of a file.
Hilaire
2009/10/30 Bert Freudenberg bert@freudenbergs.de:
On 29.10.2009, at 09:03, Walter Bender wrote:
On Thu, Oct 29, 2009 at 8:57 AM, Bert Freudenberg bert@freudenbergs.de wrote:
Begin forwarded message:
From: Bert Freudenberg bert@freudenbergs.de Date: 29. Oktober 2009 08:39:11 GMT-04:00 To: Hilaire Fernandes hilaire.fernandes@edu.ge.ch Cc: OLPC Devel devel@laptop.org Subject: Re: Sharing files among several XO
On 29.10.2009, at 02:47, Hilaire Fernandes wrote:
Under Etoys, If I keep down the mouse button and choose "Save under another name" (I am not sure about the exact message), and save the project with another name, then in the journal the previous instance of the project is replaced with this new one. I will check again tonight.
Note: Pay attention I am not just using the Keep button
Why?!
Simply stop Etoys to save to the Journal, overwriting the previous entry.
Simply click the Keep button to create a new entry in the Journal.
Simply edit the name in the Etoys toolbar to rename. Or rename in the Journal.
The hidden save menu options let you save to a file or upload to the Squeakland website. They do not save to the Journal. They are hidden for a reason.
- Bert -
If anybody has ideas on how to avoid misconceptions like above, let's hear them.
I think that if the Sugar sharing and versioning were working better, then this problem/misconception would never have arisen. 0.84/86 addresses many of the sharing issues. We'll be discussing versioning in Bolzano as part of our 0.88 plans. The good news is that OLPC seems to be motivated to get 0.86 onto the XO 1.5 machines.
-walter
How would that address the differences between using Etoys on a machine with a user-managed file system and Etoys on Sugar with automatic saving?
Are you suggesting that when running under Sugar, we should disable Etoys' ability to work with the filesystem directly? What Hilaire ran into is that he accidentally used the lower-level filesystem interface instead of the higher-level Journal interface.
- Bert -
etoys-dev mailing list etoys-dev@squeakland.org http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys-dev
The file system is exposed in Terminal. We can't pretend it doesn't exist. Instead, we need a plan for how and when to explain it to students in the curriculum, and to explain the relationship of Journal to filesystem.
On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 08:32, Hilaire Fernandes hilaire.fernandes@edu.ge.ch wrote:
Btw, it is likely kids may not have this misconception as they may have not initial conception of a file.
Hilaire
2009/10/30 Bert Freudenberg bert@freudenbergs.de:
On 29.10.2009, at 09:03, Walter Bender wrote:
On Thu, Oct 29, 2009 at 8:57 AM, Bert Freudenberg bert@freudenbergs.de wrote:
Begin forwarded message:
From: Bert Freudenberg bert@freudenbergs.de Date: 29. Oktober 2009 08:39:11 GMT-04:00 To: Hilaire Fernandes hilaire.fernandes@edu.ge.ch Cc: OLPC Devel devel@laptop.org Subject: Re: Sharing files among several XO
On 29.10.2009, at 02:47, Hilaire Fernandes wrote:
Under Etoys, If I keep down the mouse button and choose "Save under another name" (I am not sure about the exact message), and save the project with another name, then in the journal the previous instance of the project is replaced with this new one. I will check again tonight.
Note: Pay attention I am not just using the Keep button
Why?!
Simply stop Etoys to save to the Journal, overwriting the previous entry.
Simply click the Keep button to create a new entry in the Journal.
Simply edit the name in the Etoys toolbar to rename. Or rename in the Journal.
The hidden save menu options let you save to a file or upload to the Squeakland website. They do not save to the Journal. They are hidden for a reason.
- Bert -
If anybody has ideas on how to avoid misconceptions like above, let's hear them.
I think that if the Sugar sharing and versioning were working better, then this problem/misconception would never have arisen. 0.84/86 addresses many of the sharing issues. We'll be discussing versioning in Bolzano as part of our 0.88 plans. The good news is that OLPC seems to be motivated to get 0.86 onto the XO 1.5 machines.
-walter
How would that address the differences between using Etoys on a machine with a user-managed file system and Etoys on Sugar with automatic saving?
Are you suggesting that when running under Sugar, we should disable Etoys' ability to work with the filesystem directly? What Hilaire ran into is that he accidentally used the lower-level filesystem interface instead of the higher-level Journal interface.
- Bert -
etoys-dev mailing list etoys-dev@squeakland.org http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys-dev
-- http://blog.ofset.org/hilaire _______________________________________________ etoys-dev mailing list etoys-dev@squeakland.org http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys-dev
2009/10/29 Bert Freudenberg bert@freudenbergs.de:
If anybody has ideas on how to avoid misconceptions like above, let's hear them.
A first usability concern you can point at is quite obvious: the place to rename and the place to keep a project are located far from each other. Therefore a lambda user may not see the symbolic connection between the two. Appropriate feedback like bubble tips could help to reduce this cognitive distance, but most kid may not read it. I fell GUI usability with adult and kids may requires different approaches. It seems Sugar approach is to reduce cogntive load with a simpler interface with less menus and icons. Something not exactly followed by the Morphic interface which induce very high cognitive load for kids (many path to follow), but oh well this is another topic.
Adding to [[The Undiscoverable]].
On Thu, Oct 29, 2009 at 05:57, Bert Freudenberg bert@freudenbergs.de wrote:
Begin forwarded message:
From: Bert Freudenberg bert@freudenbergs.de Date: 29. Oktober 2009 08:39:11 GMT-04:00 To: Hilaire Fernandes hilaire.fernandes@edu.ge.ch Cc: OLPC Devel devel@laptop.org Subject: Re: Sharing files among several XO
On 29.10.2009, at 02:47, Hilaire Fernandes wrote:
Under Etoys, If I keep down the mouse button and choose "Save under another name" (I am not sure about the exact message), and save the project with another name, then in the journal the previous instance of the project is replaced with this new one. I will check again tonight.
Note: Pay attention I am not just using the Keep button
Why?!
Simply stop Etoys to save to the Journal, overwriting the previous entry.
Simply click the Keep button to create a new entry in the Journal.
Simply edit the name in the Etoys toolbar to rename. Or rename in the Journal.
The hidden save menu options let you save to a file or upload to the Squeakland website. They do not save to the Journal. They are hidden for a reason.
- Bert -
If anybody has ideas on how to avoid misconceptions like above, let's hear them.
- Bert -
etoys-dev mailing list etoys-dev@squeakland.org http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys-dev
etoys-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org
-
Bert Freudenberg -
Edward Cherlin -
Hilaire Fernandes -
Walter Bender