Beginners October 2013

beginners@lists.squeakfoundation.org

11 participants
11 discussions

Is Squeak/Pharo an appropriate language choice?
by Charles Hixson 02 Nov '13

02 Nov '13

I'm contemplating a project that would benefit greatly by a persistent memory image, though I'll eventually (in a year or so) need the 64-bit image, but: The image will be a lot larger than RAM. It would include a directed graph that had an index of a million or so entries, and most nodes wouldn't be indexed. So in order to even load it would need to use some sort of lazy access. And I'm not even sure that a Dictionary of over a million items is reasonable. (Naturally none of the examples address this problem.) Additionally, all of my (written) documentation is so old that it doesn't even discuss multi-processor systems, so I don't know whether modern Smalltalks make any use of additional available processors. I'd really like some advice, and possibly some references. I know that Smalltalk has the reputation for being slow (yes, I've been reading about the recent speed-ups), but much of what I'd need to write in any other language seems like it may already be present in Smalltalk, so if it would work, I'd like to choose it. But I won't be able to test this until the application has been running for quite awhile, so I would be very desirable that I know ahead of time. -- Charles Hixson

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Is this list active?
by Charles Hixson 27 Oct '13

27 Oct '13

Is this list active? The last message I have listed is from 08/22/2012 -- Charles Hixson

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Re: Beginners Digest, Vol 90, Issue 12
by David Holiday 26 Oct '13

26 Oct '13

Hi Hannes, There were several reasons behind the switch. - Cross browser nonsense: the application is an information platform with a specialized interface called Jigsaw. By 'specialized' I mean to say it doesn't look or act like a standard WIMP interface, so none of the standard libraries available can be used. Everything has to be made from scratch. In doing this we started to run into performance issues with some browsers, as well as compatibility problems. Smalltalk (we aren't decided on what dialect to use - Squeak, Pharo, etc) solves both of those problems. It is very easy to create a new interface paradigm in morphic, and the code will always run the same way regardless of platform. - Security: It occurred to us that we had gotten swept up in the trend of making slick single page web applications without thinking first about whether or not it made sense to do so. Data security is important to the people (we hope) will use our software, and having things stored 'in the cloud' meant one of two things for us: 1) do lots of extra work to get all the necessary certifications to give users (like government clients and major institutions) a warm fuzzy about the integrity of their data -or- 2) find a way to allow the web app to securely access the client file system. Neither option is ideal, or really even feasible at this time. Moreover, even a user that doesn't require high-level security still may not want to sign up for yet another webservice. Therefore, we decided to pivot and create a desktop application and deploy that as the 'for free' version. It saves us a lot of headaches and it makes the user responsible for their own data. It also means we can create an enterprise edition that is not free that meets the needs of institutional clients. Also, the program image can be put in the 'cloud' so if the user wants to access the program from anywhere, they can. - Smalltalk doesn't have the 'stank' Java has in the minds of users: While Java is a powerful and popular language that is easily uncoupled from the browser (and thus no more insecure than any other language), Oracle had made such a mess of things users are removing JRE from their machines because the perception is Java=bad. Using smalltalk gives us all the flexibility and power of a mature OOP environment without having to reckon with user resistance to installing the VM. -------------------------------------- David Holiday neuburge(a)rohan.sdsu.edu (sent from my iPad) > On Oct 26, 2013, at 5:00 AM, beginners-request(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org wrote: > > Send Beginners mailing list submissions to > beginners(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > beginners-request(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > beginners-owner(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Beginners digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Reading PNG images into squeak image is slow (Levente Uzonyi) > 2. Re: [SPAM] Re: [Newbies] Reading PNG images into squeak image > is slow (Mateusz Grotek) > 3. Re: Re: sandboxing a world (H. Hirzel) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2013 17:26:04 +0200 (CEST) > From: Levente Uzonyi <leves(a)elte.hu> > Subject: Re: [Newbies] Reading PNG images into squeak image is slow > To: "A friendly place to get answers to even the most basic questions > about Squeak." <beginners(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org> > Message-ID: > <alpine.DEB.2.00.1310251711200.1448(a)login01.caesar.elte.hu> > Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed > > Thanks. I found a really bad bottleneck, and fixed some others in > PNGReadWriter. I have uploaded my changes to the Trunk, you can find them > in Graphics-ul.275. > Loading any of the png images you've sent takes 1-1.5 seconds on my > machine with the new version. They took 4-7.5 seconds with the old, so > the speedup is about 4-5x, which might not be enough for you. > You could achieve another 2.5x speedup if your images were in RGBA format > (they are in RGB now), because that way the scanline can be converted > to a Form without byte level manipulations. > > > Levente > >> On Fri, 25 Oct 2013, Mateusz Grotek wrote: >> >> >>> >>> I just realized that it's one minute and nine seconds runtime for you. >>> That's way more than what it should be. Reading an 1920x1004 >>> non-interlaced RGBA png image takes less than 200 milliseconds for me >>> using Cog. >>> >>> Can you share the png image, so we can test it? >>> >>> >>> Levente >> >> After you said that it's not normal behaviour I tried to reproduce it today. >> 1. I cannot reproduce those 1 minute delays. >> 2. I've downloaded fresh Cog >> (http://www.mirandabanda.org/files/Cog/VM/VM.r2776/coglinux-13.33.2776.tgz) >> and Squeak (http://ftp.squeak.org/4.4/Squeak-4.4-All-in-One.zip) >> 3. I've got the following delays in one of my images with the fresh Cog: >> 0:00:00:41.598 >> 0:00:00:26.942 >> 0:00:00:36.862 >> 0:00:00:32.338 >> 0:00:00:38.316 >> 3. I've got the following delays in the fresh Cog and the fresh Squeak >> image: >> 0:00:00:09.108 >> 0:00:00:14.544 >> 0:00:00:12.226 >> 0:00:00:14.174 >> 0:00:00:13.816 >> 4. Still it's around 15 seconds. Image dependence is interesting because >> they seem to be the same versions (latest update: #12327). >> >> uname -a >> Linux mglap 2.6.27.21-3.2-pae #1 SMP Wed May 20 03:21:35 CEST 2009 i686 >> i686 i386 GNU/Linux >> >> cat /proc/cpuinfo >> ... >> model name : Genuine Intel(R) CPU T1600 @ 1.66GHz >> ... >> cpu MHz : 1662.478 >> ... >> cache size : 1024 KB >> ... >> bogomips : 3324.95 >> ... >> >> And here are some photos: >> >> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/37119147/all.zip >> >> And here is the application I use to read them in: >> a) Create an empty directory >> b) Unpack all.zip to it >> c) Filein Anotator.st >> d) Run it: Anotator new start. >> e) Open transcript >> e) Choose the directory with photos >> f) Klik lewo (left) and prawo (right) to move from one image to another >> (it will create some .txt files while doing it, so it may ask you if you >> want to overwrite) >> g) see the numbers in Transcript >> >> If you don't want to run the whole app, just run: >> [PNGReadWriter formFromFileNamed: '/some/path'] durationToRun >> >> Mateusz >> _______________________________________________ >> Beginners mailing list >> Beginners(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org >> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2013 19:40:01 +0200 > From: Mateusz Grotek <unoduetre(a)poczta.onet.pl> > Subject: Re: [SPAM] Re: [Newbies] Reading PNG images into squeak image > is slow > To: "A friendly place to get answers to even the most basic questions > about Squeak." <beginners(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org> > Message-ID: <526AACF1.5090908(a)poczta.onet.pl> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > Levente Uzonyi pisze: >> Thanks. I found a really bad bottleneck, and fixed some others in >> PNGReadWriter. I have uploaded my changes to the Trunk, you can find >> them in Graphics-ul.275. >> Loading any of the png images you've sent takes 1-1.5 seconds on my >> machine with the new version. They took 4-7.5 seconds with the old, so >> the speedup is about 4-5x, which might not be enough for you. >> You could achieve another 2.5x speedup if your images were in RGBA >> format (they are in RGB now), because that way the scanline can be >> converted to a Form without byte level manipulations. >> >> >> Levente > Thank you very much!!! > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2013 08:02:19 +0000 > From: "H. Hirzel" <hannes.hirzel(a)gmail.com> > Subject: Re: [Newbies] Re: sandboxing a world > To: "A friendly place to get answers to even the most basic questions > about Squeak." <beginners(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org> > Message-ID: > <CAGQxfVhD1d_+RVgL7iMT5_YVEWM_Dd+TiCmMqsHg5W6awX5yTw(a)mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > >> On 10/15/13, David Holiday <neuburge(a)rohan.sdsu.edu> wrote: >> Thank you everyone for your help! I've been looking at Squeak/Pharo for a >> few weeks because I've been creating a platform for knowledge workers to >> work with information that was going to be a javascript single page >> application. > >> For various reasons I think it makes sense not to have a >> 'web-based' app and was looking for a way to create a beautiful interface >> atop a powerful tool that I could easily deploy to whatever platform the >> user may have. This was the last concern I had, so I'm going to go ahead and >> start whipping up some awesome code. > > David, > > Just curious... > what are your reasons to abandon going for a 'web-based' application > in favor of a tool like Squeak? > > Was it performance, the lack of IDE in JavaScript, the amount of data > to deal with, something else? Does your Squeak app work with a server > or is it a single tier app? > > --Hannes > >> >> David Holiday >> ------------------------------------------------- >> San Diego State University >> neuburge(a)rohan.sdsu.edu > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Beginners mailing list > Beginners(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners > > > End of Beginners Digest, Vol 90, Issue 12 > *****************************************

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Re: sandboxing a world
by David Holiday 26 Oct '13

26 Oct '13

Thank you everyone for your help! I've been looking at Squeak/Pharo for a few weeks because I've been creating a platform for knowledge workers to work with information that was going to be a javascript single page application. For various reasons I think it makes sense not to have a 'web-based' app and was looking for a way to create a beautiful interface atop a powerful tool that I could easily deploy to whatever platform the user may have. This was the last concern I had, so I'm going to go ahead and start whipping up some awesome code. David Holiday ------------------------------------------------- San Diego State University neuburge(a)rohan.sdsu.edu On Oct 15, 2013, at 5:00 AM, beginners-request(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org wrote: > Send Beginners mailing list submissions to > beginners(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > beginners-request(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > beginners-owner(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Beginners digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: sandboxing a world (Herbert K?nig) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2013 22:25:22 +0200 > From: Herbert K?nig <herbertkoenig(a)gmx.net> > Subject: Re: [Newbies] sandboxing a world > To: beginners(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org > Message-ID: <525C5332.8020308(a)gmx.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > Hi David, > > yes that's definitely possible. Back in 2006 and 2007 I did it > frequently for software used in the production of electronics. Meant for > users with no computer knowledge assumed. Those programs refused to be > resized in that they snapped back to their original size by changing the > World 's extent in the step method of the app. You may want to read the > World's extent to re-layout after resizing and only refuse to shrink > below a minimal size. > > This was long ago and I assume it is not how you would do it today but > the process will be similar. > > As a user of Windows I had a batch file with the following line: > Squeak_newVM.exe lockdown.image start.st > > This starts the VM with a certain image and a Smalltalk script. So I > just copied my image and changes into that folder under a fixed name and > edited the class name in the script. Don't remember why I used a custom > VM there, but it was a minimal change I did. Maybe use the VM to fix the > window size. > > The script read: > "set up autostart" > Smalltalk addToStartUpList: PrüfRepDatenApplication . "The class > of my Application" > "remove the Flaps. For a recent Squeak you also might want to > remove the menu bar at the top. Search Preferences for 'docking'" > Flaps globalFlapTabsIfAny do: [:aFlapTab | Flaps removeFlapTab: > aFlapTab keepInList: false]. "usually not enabled in modern Squeak" > GZipReadStream fileIn: 'SqueakLockdown-nk.1.cs.gz' asFileName. > "this is the changeset which does the lockdown" > Preferences disableProgrammerFacilities. SmalltalkImage current > snapshot: true andQuit: true. "This must be on one line" > > If you can't locate the the changeset, drop me an email, I will send it > to you so you can examine it. > > In those days (and I assume still today) your class needed two class > side methods in category system startup: > > startUp > implemented as self startUp: nil > and strartUp: anIgnoredObject > which did the initialization like self new buildGUI > > Please refer to the other pointers for more up to date information. I > just want to give you an example illustrating the process. Especially > the program "Plopp" mentioned there was distributed on CD and was meant > for kids. I bought a copy so I know it was like any old windows program. > > Cheers > > Herbert > > > Am 13.10.2013 23:12, schrieb David Holiday: >> Hi Herbert, >> >> Thanks for getting back to me so quickly. As I understand you, it's >> possible to create an application that prevents the user from seeing >> anything but the application controls and widgets. Does this include the >> Squeak world menu bar? I'm looking to avoid having a >> window-within-a-window situation. Ideally, to the novice eye, the end user >> would have no indication that this is a smalltalk application. >> >> -david >> >> >>> Send Beginners mailing list submissions to >>> beginners(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org >>> >>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >>> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners >>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >>> beginners-request(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org >>> >>> You can reach the person managing the list at >>> beginners-owner(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org >>> >>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >>> than "Re: Contents of Beginners digest..." >>> >>> >>> Today's Topics: >>> >>> 1. sandboxing a world (David Holiday) >>> 2. Re: sandboxing a world (Herbert K?nig) >>> >>> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> Message: 1 >>> Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2013 01:23:56 -0700 >>> From: David Holiday <neuburge(a)rohan.sdsu.edu> >>> Subject: [Newbies] sandboxing a world >>> To: beginners(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org >>> Message-ID: <B8C798A9-A2CE-40A4-B0A8-86765205B84D(a)rohan.sdsu.edu> >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >>> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> I'm just now getting into squeak and finding it a delightful programming >>> environment. I am, however, curious as to why some features don't seem >>> readily available. First and foremost, why isn't there a stripped down >>> version of the VM that runs Squeak programs and nothing else? That is, why >>> isn't it possible to distribute Squeak program to users in the way Java >>> developers distribute Java programs? >>> >>> To put this another way, let's say I'm a Squeak developer and I want to >>> distribute my program to a community of people that does X. Under the >>> current paradigm, all the people that do X also have to be Squeak savvy >>> people if they are going to make use of my program. They have to be savvy >>> enough to know what it is, install it, run it, install my program, and run >>> my program. Moreover, they have to know enough about the Squeak interface >>> to know what to do if they accidentally close my program window. >>> Conversely, with Java, the user doesn't have to know anything about Java >>> beyond downloading JVM. In this way, I can distribute my program to >>> everyone that does X without having to worry about whether or not they >>> also know anything about Squeak. >>> >>> So why isn't something like this available? >>> >>> >>> David Holiday >>> ------------------------------------------------- >>> San Diego State University >>> neuburge(a)rohan.sdsu.edu >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>

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Reading PNG images into squeak image is slow
by Mateusz Grotek 25 Oct '13

25 Oct '13

It is (even on Cog). What is the reason for that? Is it a problem with the algorithm used in the image or it's unsolvable inside the image and a plugin or FFI is needed. P.S. Code: (PNGReadWriter formFromFileNamed: something) durationToRun "0:00:01:09.591" "unacceptale if you want to program an image browser" Data: 1301.png: PNG image data, 2048 x 1536, 8-bit/color RGB, non-interlaced (a pic of a street taken from a cell phone)

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Exupery
by Mateusz Grotek 22 Oct '13

22 Oct '13

Are there any plans to integrate exupery into Cog or standard VM. I like the idea for my methods to be compiled to the native code...

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AW: [Newbies] Walk directory of files?
by Herbert König 21 Oct '13

21 Oct '13

Hi Charles, No Squeak handy but there is a allfilesinalldirectories. This will give you all files in all subfolders. Tonight I will look up the real name but you may be able to find it in FileStream or similar yourself. Cheers Herbert -------- Ursprüngliche Nachricht -------- Von: Charles Hixson <charleshixsn(a)earthlink.net> Datum: 21.10.2013 9:14 (GMT+01:00) An: beginners(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org Betreff: [Newbies] Walk directory of files? What is the best way to walk a directory of files? It would be nice is I could just: Get next file? exitst? ifFalse then done match pattern? ifFalse, then go to first step return file This requires that the method track where I am. I think I can figure out how to stuff them into a collection, and return the entire collection of matched files, and perhaps that's the right answer, but that's not the way I would do it in Python or Ruby, so perhaps it's also not the way to do it in Smalltalk. Also, if it matters, the files will be utf-8 files, many of them with BOMs. (Well, not really BOMs, since it's utf8, but the utf8 header.) Does Squeak recognize BOM headers? -- Charles Hixson _______________________________________________ Beginners mailing list Beginners(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners

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Walk directory of files?
by Charles Hixson 21 Oct '13

21 Oct '13

What is the best way to walk a directory of files? It would be nice is I could just: Get next file? exitst? ifFalse then done match pattern? ifFalse, then go to first step return file This requires that the method track where I am. I think I can figure out how to stuff them into a collection, and return the entire collection of matched files, and perhaps that's the right answer, but that's not the way I would do it in Python or Ruby, so perhaps it's also not the way to do it in Smalltalk. Also, if it matters, the files will be utf-8 files, many of them with BOMs. (Well, not really BOMs, since it's utf8, but the utf8 header.) Does Squeak recognize BOM headers? -- Charles Hixson

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Re: Re: [Newbies] sandboxing a world
by David Holiday 14 Oct '13

14 Oct '13

Hi Herbert, Thanks for getting back to me so quickly. As I understand you, it's possible to create an application that prevents the user from seeing anything but the application controls and widgets. Does this include the Squeak world menu bar? I'm looking to avoid having a window-within-a-window situation. Ideally, to the novice eye, the end user would have no indication that this is a smalltalk application. -david > Send Beginners mailing list submissions to > beginners(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > beginners-request(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > beginners-owner(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Beginners digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. sandboxing a world (David Holiday) > 2. Re: sandboxing a world (Herbert K?nig) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2013 01:23:56 -0700 > From: David Holiday <neuburge(a)rohan.sdsu.edu> > Subject: [Newbies] sandboxing a world > To: beginners(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org > Message-ID: <B8C798A9-A2CE-40A4-B0A8-86765205B84D(a)rohan.sdsu.edu> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Hi all, > > I'm just now getting into squeak and finding it a delightful programming > environment. I am, however, curious as to why some features don't seem > readily available. First and foremost, why isn't there a stripped down > version of the VM that runs Squeak programs and nothing else? That is, why > isn't it possible to distribute Squeak program to users in the way Java > developers distribute Java programs? > > To put this another way, let's say I'm a Squeak developer and I want to > distribute my program to a community of people that does X. Under the > current paradigm, all the people that do X also have to be Squeak savvy > people if they are going to make use of my program. They have to be savvy > enough to know what it is, install it, run it, install my program, and run > my program. Moreover, they have to know enough about the Squeak interface > to know what to do if they accidentally close my program window. > Conversely, with Java, the user doesn't have to know anything about Java > beyond downloading JVM. In this way, I can distribute my program to > everyone that does X without having to worry about whether or not they > also know anything about Squeak. > > So why isn't something like this available? > > > David Holiday > ------------------------------------------------- > San Diego State University > neuburge(a)rohan.sdsu.edu > > > > > > >

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sandboxing a world
by David Holiday 13 Oct '13

13 Oct '13

Hi all, I'm just now getting into squeak and finding it a delightful programming environment. I am, however, curious as to why some features don't seem readily available. First and foremost, why isn't there a stripped down version of the VM that runs Squeak programs and nothing else? That is, why isn't it possible to distribute Squeak program to users in the way Java developers distribute Java programs? To put this another way, let's say I'm a Squeak developer and I want to distribute my program to a community of people that does X. Under the current paradigm, all the people that do X also have to be Squeak savvy people if they are going to make use of my program. They have to be savvy enough to know what it is, install it, run it, install my program, and run my program. Moreover, they have to know enough about the Squeak interface to know what to do if they accidentally close my program window. Conversely, with Java, the user doesn't have to know anything about Java beyond downloading JVM. In this way, I can distribute my program to everyone that does X without having to worry about whether or not they also know anything about Squeak. So why isn't something like this available? David Holiday ------------------------------------------------- San Diego State University neuburge(a)rohan.sdsu.edu

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Beginners October 2013