I don't want to start a war here, but I have been through the first steps with both Seaside and AIDA/Web, enough to build the start of a web site. Before I make the commitment to one or the other, I wonder if anyone has done a recent, objective comparison between the two ?
They both seem very capable. I felt like I turned out a better looking product a little easier with AIDA, but I sense that Seaside has a much larger following. I also wonder if continuations are that important to me. They also have a great many similarities. To the point where I think I could change AIDA to use a lot of Seaside if not the other way around.
Any real experiences between the two will be most appreciated. This is a major decision point for me.
Leon
I've copied this reply to the squeak-dev mailing list. There have been some recent discussions on both
On Thu, Mar 20, 2008 at 11:14 AM, Leon Smith lsmith@leonsmith.com wrote:
I don't want to start a war here, but I have been through the first steps with both Seaside and AIDA/Web, enough to build the start of a web site. Before I make the commitment to one or the other, I wonder if anyone has done a recent, objective comparison between the two ?
They both seem very capable. I felt like I turned out a better looking product a little easier with AIDA, but I sense that Seaside has a much larger following. I also wonder if continuations are that important to me. They also have a great many similarities. To the point where I think I could change AIDA to use a lot of Seaside if not the other way around.
Any real experiences between the two will be most appreciated. This is a major decision point for me.
Leon
View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Seaside-vs.-AIDA-tp16185376p16185376.html Sent from the Squeak - Beginners mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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Leon, I am both "new" to Smalltalk (been staring at an "empty" browser for a couple of years!) and to Aida, but believed in the ability of Smalltalk to be the right tool for the job to build some tools I need in a Healthcare Environment. I didn't know which to choose either!
As a new Smalltalker, I couldn't understand Seaside to the point where I could figure out how things worked and how to do something with it WITHOUT following a tutorial line by line--and yet it felt very "meta-capable." Just beyond me! However, I have no doubt it can do great things. It just feels very theory-based for a newcomer. I felt like I HAD to understand web programming and HTML just to make it work.
Aida, I got. Very down to earth. Almost like "PRINT 'Hello'". It seems to abstract the web aspect a little better (for me). While I still have to ask for help, I'm usually "almost there" on my own. It just seems to "make sense" to me. I think I have actually been able to turn a major Smalltalk learning curve because of Aida. I like the strong Model-View relationship it forces you to use, and, indeed, supports what I am calling the "Model-View-Design" triad whereby (if I actually knew more CSS) it is relatively straightforward to restyle your site separate from your view and from your model. (I am SURE Seaside does this too...again...how?!).
I'm not trying to make a pitch either way, I just followed the "keep it simple" motto and went with what I could understand, and yet I still worry about my choice occasionally because of the very large Seaside bandwagon--Will there be more examples available? Will I be able to get more help with Seaside? All that stuff.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that even if the objective facts pointed out that Seaside was better, smarter, faster...it still wouldn't work for ME right now because I can't make it work. Aida could be that way for you--I would go with whichever fits YOU better (or your team), because they both seem like mature products that will be around for a while.
Rob
On Thu, Mar 20, 2008 at 2:14 PM, Leon Smith lsmith@leonsmith.com wrote:
I don't want to start a war here, but I have been through the first steps with both Seaside and AIDA/Web, enough to build the start of a web site. Before I make the commitment to one or the other, I wonder if anyone has done a recent, objective comparison between the two ?
They both seem very capable. I felt like I turned out a better looking product a little easier with AIDA, but I sense that Seaside has a much larger following. I also wonder if continuations are that important to me. They also have a great many similarities. To the point where I think I could change AIDA to use a lot of Seaside if not the other way around.
Any real experiences between the two will be most appreciated. This is a major decision point for me.
Leon
View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Seaside-vs.-AIDA-tp16185376p16185376.html Sent from the Squeak - Beginners mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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Rob
have a look at the seaside mailing-list archive! I'm not sure that it is possible to get more support and feedback than there is **any** mailing-list.
Stef
On Mar 20, 2008, at 11:06 PM, Rob Rothwell wrote:
Leon,
I am both "new" to Smalltalk (been staring at an "empty" browser for a couple of years!) and to Aida, but believed in the ability of Smalltalk to be the right tool for the job to build some tools I need in a Healthcare Environment. I didn't know which to choose either!
As a new Smalltalker, I couldn't understand Seaside to the point where I could figure out how things worked and how to do something with it WITHOUT following a tutorial line by line--and yet it felt very "meta-capable." Just beyond me! However, I have no doubt it can do great things. It just feels very theory-based for a newcomer. I felt like I HAD to understand web programming and HTML just to make it work.
Aida, I got. Very down to earth. Almost like "PRINT 'Hello'". It seems to abstract the web aspect a little better (for me). While I still have to ask for help, I'm usually "almost there" on my own. It just seems to "make sense" to me. I think I have actually been able to turn a major Smalltalk learning curve because of Aida. I like the strong Model-View relationship it forces you to use, and, indeed, supports what I am calling the "Model-View-Design" triad whereby (if I actually knew more CSS) it is relatively straightforward to restyle your site separate from your view and from your model. (I am SURE Seaside does this too...again...how?!).
I'm not trying to make a pitch either way, I just followed the "keep it simple" motto and went with what I could understand, and yet I still worry about my choice occasionally because of the very large Seaside bandwagon--Will there be more examples available? Will I be able to get more help with Seaside? All that stuff.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that even if the objective facts pointed out that Seaside was better, smarter, faster...it still wouldn't work for ME right now because I can't make it work. Aida could be that way for you--I would go with whichever fits YOU better (or your team), because they both seem like mature products that will be around for a while.
Rob
On Thu, Mar 20, 2008 at 2:14 PM, Leon Smith lsmith@leonsmith.com wrote:
I don't want to start a war here, but I have been through the first steps with both Seaside and AIDA/Web, enough to build the start of a web site. Before I make the commitment to one or the other, I wonder if anyone has done a recent, objective comparison between the two ?
They both seem very capable. I felt like I turned out a better looking product a little easier with AIDA, but I sense that Seaside has a much larger following. I also wonder if continuations are that important to me. They also have a great many similarities. To the point where I think I could change AIDA to use a lot of Seaside if not the other way around.
Any real experiences between the two will be most appreciated. This is a major decision point for me.
Leon
View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Seaside-vs.-AIDA-tp16185376p16185376.html Sent from the Squeak - Beginners mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Beginners mailing list Beginners@lists.squeakfoundation.org http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
On Fri, Mar 21, 2008 at 3:21 AM, stephane ducasse stephane.ducasse@free.fr wrote:
Rob
have a look at the seaside mailing-list archive! I'm not sure that it is possible to get more support and feedback than there is **any** mailing-list.
Oh...I'm not saying help isn't there! I'm just saying that "right out of the box" Seaside was harder for me personally...a lot of which, I think, has to do with the fact that Smalltalk in gerneral is still hard for me!
Rob
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