This isn't exactly newbie stuff, so I'd rather take this to squeak- dev.
I will then take this questions to squeak-dev and resort to more "newbie" ones...
In many places I have read things like Morphic will be replaced by Tweak, and that Tweak is much better and cleaner. This brings me some questions, like:
1) Is this official? Is this in the roadmap of the main Squeak project? (at least it appears to be in the roadmap of Croquet, and this is a very good sign). 2) Should I, as a newbie, forget about learning Morphic and jump straight to Tweak instead? 3) Will Tweak also offer this "embedding" of graphical objects in one another to build up an interface (or "view"). Will it offer this ability to manipulate the graphic elements as Morphs offer? 4) The Tweak site seems to be out of maintenance and the mailing list has very low traffic... are people still working on the project? (honestly asking) What is the state of Tweak? Is it feature complete? Is it half feature complete? (sorry if this info is somewhere else)
There is no Rome list, as far as I know you are the first one trying to use it for Morphic rendering.
It's not that I want it specifically for Morphic rendering... I want Squeak and I want antialiased looks. If you tell me that Tweak is the future, and that in Tweak it would be easier to have antialiased graphics (with the plug-and-play ability of Morphs) I just jump for it... :-)
I always wondered why not many people (appearently not at all) are interested in antialiased graphics in Squeak. Even more being that it is so widely used in the Mac world, which all the graphic engine quartz antialiased stuff (I being also a Mac owner). For me, a live development environment with good 21st century graphics would be a clear winner...
Sebastian
On Jan 31, 2007, at 17:06 , Sebastian Nozzi wrote:
This isn't exactly newbie stuff, so I'd rather take this to squeak- dev.
I will then take this questions to squeak-dev and resort to more "newbie" ones...
In many places I have read things like Morphic will be replaced by Tweak, and that Tweak is much better and cleaner. This brings me some questions, like:
- Is this official? Is this in the roadmap of the main Squeak
project? (at least it appears to be in the roadmap of Croquet, and this is a very good sign).
It's not official. There are multiple UI projects being worked on in the community, which I think have better chances of getting adopted, because they're more traditional. Tweak goes beyond plain Smalltalk in various ways.
- Should I, as a newbie, forget about learning Morphic and jump
straight to Tweak instead?
There are many more people who could help you with Morphic, and the basic principles still hold in Tweak. So I'd go with Morphic for now.
- Will Tweak also offer this "embedding" of graphical objects in
one another to build up an interface (or "view"). Will it offer this ability to manipulate the graphic elements as Morphs offer?
Yes, it also has halos etc.
- The Tweak site seems to be out of maintenance and the mailing
list has very low traffic... are people still working on the project? (honestly asking) What is the state of Tweak? Is it feature complete? Is it half feature complete? (sorry if this info is somewhere else)
Well, the base system works, there is only the occasional fix - see, for example
http://source.impara.de/Tweak.html
(sort the versions by date to see recent commits). Nobody has time to update the website, I think impara moved servers so the download is broken, etc. Tweak is the 2D UI for Croquet and used in Sophie, for example. But there are few non-professional users yet, everyone is busy ...
There is no Rome list, as far as I know you are the first one trying to use it for Morphic rendering.
It's not that I want it specifically for Morphic rendering... I want Squeak and I want antialiased looks. If you tell me that Tweak is the future, and that in Tweak it would be easier to have antialiased graphics (with the plug-and-play ability of Morphs) I just jump for it... :-)
Well, it's still a tough walk. The Rome integration is a proof-of- concept, not more, really.
I always wondered why not many people (appearently not at all) are interested in antialiased graphics in Squeak. Even more being that it is so widely used in the Mac world, which all the graphic engine quartz antialiased stuff (I being also a Mac owner). For me, a live development environment with good 21st century graphics would be a clear winner...
Indeed. It's not even hard, but still a lot of work. Go for it :)
- Bert -
I'm reading the introduction to tweak and wondering why everything has to be in a Tweak project window. Or does it? The coolness of morphic in squeak is that the world encompasses the complete space. Granted, it's just a big pasteup morph, but it allows one to have (seemingly) total freedom from the confines of windows, menu bars, menus.
I trust that Tweak will have, or does have, the flexibility to remove these menus and have a total open space to work within. Is the plan to have an image that Tweak is the master UI like morphic is today? BTW, Is there anyway to mix and match tweak and morphic objects?
On Jan 31, 2007, at 19:28 , Brad Fuller wrote:
I'm reading the introduction to tweak and wondering why everything has to be in a Tweak project window. Or does it?
You can choose "open tweak project" from the world menu and enter it. This is actually much more efficient because then Tweak draws directly to the screen, and no Morphic process is running anymore. There was also an experimental image that actually stripped Morphic out after going full Tweak.
The coolness of morphic in squeak is that the world encompasses the complete space. Granted, it's just a big pasteup morph, but it allows one to have (seemingly) total freedom from the confines of windows, menu bars, menus.
Apparently you do not remember how Morphic started out in an MVC window ;)
It took quite some time to support Morphic taking over (that is, entering a Morphic project full-screen), and even more until we felt safe to make Morphic the default at startup.
I trust that Tweak will have, or does have, the flexibility to remove these menus and have a total open space to work within. Is the plan to have an image that Tweak is the master UI like morphic is today?
Yes, that's the plan at least for Croquet. The main hold-back for this is that the Tweak development tools are not yet up to par with the Morphic ones. We do have browsers etc., implemented by Marcus Denker a long while ago, but it is pretty basic comfort-wise. ToolBuilder was written by Andreas to leverage the existing tools, and it works in principle (like, Monticello supports ToolBuilder so it works under Tweak, too). ToolBuilder is actually pretty cool because you could build your app once and then run it under Morphic, or Tweak, or with native widget (wxSqueak), or over the web with a Seaside UI. But after the initial enthusiasm in the community (someone did an MVC port IIRC) there was little follow-up on this.
BTW, Is there anyway to mix and match tweak and morphic objects?
You can run a Tweak world in a Morphic window, and any graphical Tweak object can act as world, so you can put any Tweak object in a Morphic window. Impara used that for Plopp, the whole skinned UI is done in Tweak and usually layered on top of an OpenGL window, but when starting up it can also show such a Tweak dialog in a Morphic window.
- Bert -
On 2007 January 31 15:04, Bert Freudenberg wrote: ....
Yes, that's the plan at least for Croquet. The main hold-back for this is that the Tweak development tools are not yet up to par with the Morphic ones. We do have browsers etc., implemented by Marcus Denker a long while ago, but it is pretty basic comfort-wise. ToolBuilder was written by Andreas to leverage the existing tools, and it works in principle (like, Monticello supports ToolBuilder so it works under Tweak, too). ToolBuilder is actually pretty cool because you could build your app once and then run it under Morphic, or Tweak, or with native widget (wxSqueak), or over the web with a Seaside UI.
Hi Bert,
Do you know if there is a sample application I can load, that runs as a Seaside app and also in Morphic or Tweak? (and would it be that simply loading such app into an image that contains Seaside (/Tweak/Morphic), it will automatically work just by virtue of being written using the Pluggable* widgets... I guess if the answer is yes I should be able to test it with Monticello)
Thanks Milan
But after the initial enthusiasm in the community (someone did an MVC port IIRC) there was little follow-up on this.
BTW, Is there anyway to mix and match tweak and morphic objects?
You can run a Tweak world in a Morphic window, and any graphical Tweak object can act as world, so you can put any Tweak object in a Morphic window. Impara used that for Plopp, the whole skinned UI is done in Tweak and usually layered on top of an OpenGL window, but when starting up it can also show such a Tweak dialog in a Morphic window.
- Bert -
Beginners mailing list Beginners@lists.squeakfoundation.org http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
On Feb 1, 2007, at 5:19 , Milan Zimmermann wrote:
On 2007 January 31 15:04, Bert Freudenberg wrote: ....
Yes, that's the plan at least for Croquet. The main hold-back for this is that the Tweak development tools are not yet up to par with the Morphic ones. We do have browsers etc., implemented by Marcus Denker a long while ago, but it is pretty basic comfort-wise. ToolBuilder was written by Andreas to leverage the existing tools, and it works in principle (like, Monticello supports ToolBuilder so it works under Tweak, too). ToolBuilder is actually pretty cool because you could build your app once and then run it under Morphic, or Tweak, or with native widget (wxSqueak), or over the web with a Seaside UI.
Hi Bert,
Do you know if there is a sample application I can load, that runs as a Seaside app and also in Morphic or Tweak? (and would it be that simply loading such app into an image that contains Seaside (/Tweak/ Morphic), it will automatically work just by virtue of being written using the Pluggable* widgets... I guess if the answer is yes I should be able to test it with Monticello)
I don't think there is a Seaside ToolBuilder yet. In 3.9, you have builders for Morphic and MVC. Plus there is the one Tweak.
Also, you must not reference the Pluggable*Spec classes directly, but always go through the ToolBuilder messages. Just have a look at the senders of pluggableWindowSpec to get a feel for how to use ToolBuilder.
- Bert -
On 2007 February 1 04:34, Bert Freudenberg wrote:
I don't think there is a Seaside ToolBuilder yet. In 3.9, you have builders for Morphic and MVC. Plus there is the one Tweak.
Also, you must not reference the Pluggable*Spec classes directly, but always go through the ToolBuilder messages. Just have a look at the senders of pluggableWindowSpec to get a feel for how to use ToolBuilder.
Wow, ToolBuilder is quite amazing. I was in the past reading about it on the mailing list, and thought it is only for creating the "tools", but it appears (and I know I only have a glimpse of understanding) it is a common layer on which any Squeak UI can be build.
Thanks for the pointers,
Milan
- Bert -
Beginners mailing list Beginners@lists.squeakfoundation.org http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
On Feb 2, 2007, at 8:48 , Milan Zimmermann wrote:
On 2007 February 1 04:34, Bert Freudenberg wrote:
I don't think there is a Seaside ToolBuilder yet. In 3.9, you have builders for Morphic and MVC. Plus there is the one Tweak.
Also, you must not reference the Pluggable*Spec classes directly, but always go through the ToolBuilder messages. Just have a look at the senders of pluggableWindowSpec to get a feel for how to use ToolBuilder.
Wow, ToolBuilder is quite amazing. I was in the past reading about it on the mailing list, and thought it is only for creating the "tools", but it appears (and I know I only have a glimpse of understanding) it is a common layer on which any Squeak UI can be build.
Well, any "boring" UI made of lists and text fields and buttons ... but yes, that is the idea.
- Bert -
beginners@lists.squeakfoundation.org
-
Bert Freudenberg -
Brad Fuller -
Michael Rueger -
Milan Zimmermann -
Sebastian Nozzi