I've been seeing some messages fly by about people using Squeak like "Smart Paper." What is meant by this? Using the various presentation morphs and just projects and workspaces for a more visual, dynamic, note taking system?
Could anyone give examples of how they are using Squeak just as a general tool, not necessarily for programming per se, if this is the correct way to interpret this?
Just looking for uses I am not recognizing...
Rob
Hello Rob,
RR> I've been seeing some messages fly by about people using RR> Squeak like "Smart Paper." What is meant by this? Using the RR> various presentation morphs and just projects and workspaces for a RR> more visual, dynamic, note taking system?
some of us use it for presentations. BookMorph even has a method whose name suggests you can import powerpoint. I never used BookMorph except for trying.
One version of smart paper is, I draw userinterfaces by just placing the elements into an empty project and place texts around them like the names to reference them, the message names they send an some general description of what they do. Did this on paper before.
In one case where I did not need so much text around I gradually filled the sketch with life to have a prototype
For many aspects of a development project I have several Squeak project with browsers open on the relevant methods and Workspaces. And I have sketches about the flow of some aspects of the software.
For my project leading job I carry an 3.6 Squeak on a USB stick which I really use as a notetaker. I lead a road design software project where I have Squeak projects on technical, sales, customer and competition aspects.
The last one is what I was talking about in my reply to Brenda's post in Squeak dev.
Cheers,
Herbert
On Sat, Jul 5, 2008 at 6:46 AM, Herbert König herbertkoenig@gmx.net wrote:
One version of smart paper is, I draw userinterfaces by just placing the elements into an empty project and place texts around them like the names to reference them, the message names they send an some general description of what they do. Did this on paper before.
This is going to sound really lame, but do you have any screenshots you can share? This sounds like a very useful technique, but I don't think my brain is using Morphic that way. In fact, I don't think my brain is using Morphic at all!
In one case where I did not need so much text around I gradually filled the sketch with life to have a prototype
For many aspects of a development project I have several Squeak project with browsers open on the relevant methods and Workspaces. And I have sketches about the flow of some aspects of the software.
What are you using for your sketches?
For my project leading job I carry an 3.6 Squeak on a USB stick which
I really use as a notetaker. I lead a road design software project where I have Squeak projects on technical, sales, customer and competition aspects.
What features do you use for notes? Workspaces for typing? Connectors? More sketches? Why 3.6? Does it have features that have been removed?
The last one is what I was talking about in my reply to Brenda's post
in Squeak dev.
Thank you for sharing. I have been trying to "study my history" lately, and am feeling very much like there are all these capabilities out there that I am definitely NOT taking advantage of! When I read, for example, that "The original [Augment] system is still in use today by Dr. Engelbart and the Bootstrap Alliance," I just have to think that we are all suffering from not maximizing the capabilities of the systems we already have!
Thanks again,
Rob
Hi Rob,
I wanted to thank you for your email to the list and your struggles. I am just beginning to learn about Squeak and being an old procedural programmer (PDP-11), OOP in general is kind of backwards to my way of thinking, and so I can identify with your feeling as though you are just not online all the way. The first programming that I did that was at all object oriented was in Visual Basic many years ago, and I can remember thinking; "Ok, these buttons and windows and textboxes can react to actions, but how do you start the whole thing going?" It's kind of laughable now, but at the time I was used to: first you have the computer do one thing, then the next thing, and so on... So its like I was sitting there waiting for the program to do something and the program was sitting there waiting for me to do something.
I am hoping that as I go through the material, ideas which aren't immediately understandable will become so after getting more info. It's hard to do that, because it makes me feel uncomfortable to feel as though I'm not getting it. When I was going to school for my degree in electronics there was a lot of that, and that turned out ok.
Good luck, hopefully we'll get it. :-)
Steve
On Sat, 2008-07-05 at 09:56 -0400, Rob Rothwell wrote:
On Sat, Jul 5, 2008 at 6:46 AM, Herbert König herbertkoenig@gmx.net wrote: One version of smart paper is, I draw userinterfaces by just placing the elements into an empty project and place texts around them like the names to reference them, the message names they send an some general description of what they do. Did this on paper before.
This is going to sound really lame, but do you have any screenshots you can share? This sounds like a very useful technique, but I don't think my brain is using Morphic that way. In fact, I don't think my brain is using Morphic at all!
In one case where I did not need so much text around I gradually filled the sketch with life to have a prototype For many aspects of a development project I have several Squeak project with browsers open on the relevant methods and Workspaces. And I have sketches about the flow of some aspects of the software.What are you using for your sketches?
For my project leading job I carry an 3.6 Squeak on a USB stick which I really use as a notetaker. I lead a road design software project where I have Squeak projects on technical, sales, customer and competition aspects.What features do you use for notes? Workspaces for typing? Connectors? More sketches? Why 3.6? Does it have features that have been removed?
The last one is what I was talking about in my reply to Brenda's post in Squeak dev.Thank you for sharing. I have been trying to "study my history" lately, and am feeling very much like there are all these capabilities out there that I am definitely NOT taking advantage of! When I read, for example, that "The original [Augment] system is still in use today by Dr. Engelbart and the Bootstrap Alliance," I just have to think that we are all suffering from not maximizing the capabilities of the systems we already have!
Thanks again,
Rob
Beginners mailing list Beginners@lists.squeakfoundation.org http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
Hello Rob,
RR> This is going to sound really lame, but do you have any RR> screenshots you can share? This sounds like a very useful
I send you a private mail, the lists have limits on the size of posts.
RR> What are you using for your sketches?
The objects from the ObjectCatalog in the World Menu. Lines, Texts with coloured Backgrounds, Buttons. Here I would like that typing in the air just creates a text. Have you come across the red Halo buttons "Show handles" entry for lines (PolygonMorph)?
RR> What features do you use for notes? Workspaces for typing? RR> Connectors? Mainly texts, sometimes with border. Usually I copy an existing one with the green halo button. Connectors where too heavyweight on computing power when I tried them.
RR> Why 3.6? Does it have features that have been removed? 3.6 Full is just small and I want an image that starts fast. Especially in production (physical goods) I encounter quite some computers with USB1.1.
And I keep 3.6 around because it has "The worlds of Squeak" which really is a showcase on what is possible with Squeak.
Hello Rob:
I have been using Squeak for corporate presentation. I have effectively stopped using PowerPoint. As you suspected, I use the book morph and the stack morph for creating presentations. My Squeak presentations are much more effective and come across as creative than passive PowerPoint ones. However, I do find a lot of limitations in Squeak, owing to my own ignorance I think, they are as follows:
1. I tried animating my Squeak presentations using EToys but it is way too hard
2. I failed to run some Flash movies on Squeak, some months ago Edgar had suggested that older images support Flash but it didn't work for me. Maybe I failed to include the Balloon package and was trying to activate the FlashPlayer Morph. I lost interest in that at that point in time and left off my experiments.
3. Exporting my slides from a book morph and a stack morph is way too laborious, the way I do it. Usually, I save all my slides as Jpegs/PNGs and send them to people in a folder which they can view in any Windows/Linux image viewer with slide show capability. This approach renders my slides to be passive like PowerPoint but lot more aesthetic in look&feel. I tried to do this better but in vain. Any sugggestions?
4. Nowadays, I am pushing people to download Squeak and load my projects. But it is difficult to move corporate people from Windows/Mac's native applicaitons and freelancers from Adobe Flash/Photoshop.
But I must say that I have been sticking to Squeak as my authoring platform. I take notes using workspace and export it as txt files for further use. I use stack morphs to develop story boards (I am a writer, specialising in technology and economy.)
This may be too low-level for people on this mail-list. Please forgive me. If you have ideas for me, I will be grateful. (I intend to do some serious programming in the days to come. I have programmed in Fortran, Cobol, Pascal, C , Basic and used DBase IV and FoxBase. This is all between 1989 to 1994.)
Regards, Prashanth Hebbar
On 7/5/08, Rob Rothwell r.j.rothwell@gmail.com wrote:
I've been seeing some messages fly by about people using Squeak like "Smart Paper." What is meant by this? Using the various presentation morphs and just projects and workspaces for a more visual, dynamic, note taking system?
Could anyone give examples of how they are using Squeak just as a general tool, not necessarily for programming per se, if this is the correct way to interpret this?
Just looking for uses I am not recognizing...
Rob _______________________________________________ Beginners mailing list Beginners@lists.squeakfoundation.org http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
Hello Prashanth,
PH> I have been using Squeak for corporate presentation. I have PH> effectively stopped using PowerPoint. As you suspected, I use the PH> book morph and the stack morph for creating presentations. My
interesting. What image are you using?
PH> 1. I tried animating my Squeak presentations using EToys but it is way too hard
To see what can be done, search the web for Squeak News. Tansel Ersavas has done some very impressive interactive essays in Squeak. Just to get up your appetitite for learning :-))
PH> 2. I failed to run some Flash movies on Squeak, some months PH> ago Edgar had suggested that older images support Flash but it PH> didn't work for me. Maybe I failed to include the Balloon package PH> and was trying to activate the FlashPlayer Morph. I lost interest PH> in that at that point in time and left off my experiments.
AFAIK Squeak only understands Flash 3. Try a 3.6 to 3.8 full image, it should have everything installed
PH> But I must say that I have been sticking to Squeak as my PH> authoring platform. I take notes using workspace and export it as PH> txt files for further use. I use stack morphs to develop story PH> boards (I am a writer, specialising in technology and economy.)
Maybe take a look at Sophie?
PH> This may be too low-level for people on this mail-list. PH> Please forgive me. If you have ideas for me, I will be grateful. PH> (I intend to do some serious programming in the days to come. I PH> have programmed in Fortran, Cobol, Pascal, C , Basic and used PH> DBase IV and FoxBase. This is all between 1989 to 1994.)
This is beginners. Actually I guess you qualify as a professional Squeak user, maybe not mainsteram. Squeak is more than programming.
Cheers,
Herbert
PH> I have been using Squeak for corporate presentation. I have PH> effectively stopped using PowerPoint. As you suspected, I use the PH> book morph and the stack morph for creating presentations. My
interesting. What image are you using?
PH: 3.9 and 3.10. I do have 3.6 image but rarely use it.
PH> 1. I tried animating my Squeak presentations using EToys but it is way too hard
To see what can be done, search the web for Squeak News. Tansel Ersavas has done some very impressive interactive essays in Squeak. Just to get up your appetitite for learning :-))
PH: Yes. I am going through the stuff now. Thanks for pointing this out. PH> But I must say that I have been sticking to Squeak as my PH> authoring platform. I take notes using workspace and export it as PH> txt files for further use. I use stack morphs to develop story PH> boards (I am a writer, specialising in technology and economy.)
Maybe take a look at Sophie?
PH: I had given it a quick look an year ago but did not go back. Will do now.
El 7/6/08 2:06 AM, "Prashanth Hebbar" hebbarp@gmail.com escribió:
- I failed to run some Flash movies on Squeak, some months ago Edgar had
suggested that older images support Flash but it didn't work for me. Maybe I failed to include the Balloon package and was trying to activate the FlashPlayer Morph. I lost interest in that at that point in time and left off my experiments.
Because Flash in Squeak is older (version 3). Sure can't run new versions of Flash made things. By the way my answer to Rob in the SqueakLightII http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/6056 , shows how to load Flash and as SqueakLightII is 3.10 based, also could be loaded with user help.
Not run newer Flash and I don't have any plans to do.
Edgar
- I failed to run some Flash movies on Squeak, some months ago Edgar had
suggested that older images support Flash but it didn't work for me. Maybe
I
failed to include the Balloon package and was trying to activate the FlashPlayer Morph. I lost interest in that at that point in time and left
off
my experiments.
Because Flash in Squeak is older (version 3). Sure can't run new versions of Flash made things. By the way my answer to Rob in the SqueakLightII http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/6056 , shows how to load Flash and as SqueakLightII is 3.10 based, also could be loaded with user help.
Not run newer Flash and I don't have any plans to do.
Thanks Edgar. My failure with Flash is due to my own doing (not being persistent) and I remember you had given me some good pointers.
El 7/6/08 5:39 AM, "Prashanth Hebbar" hebbarp@gmail.com escribió:
Thanks Edgar. My failure with Flash is due to my own doing (not being persistent) and I remember you had given me some good pointers.
And like help you and all here. I was in the same place six years ago and also I comes from structured world , Pascal , Omnis 3 and Old Classic Mac Toolbox was my background when I "discover" Squeak . I port my old MorphicGreeting from 3.2 times so could have some ideas to develop.
Stay tuned.
Edgar
El 7/6/08 5:39 AM, "Prashanth Hebbar" hebbarp@gmail.com escribió:
Thanks Edgar. My failure with Flash is due to my own doing (not being persistent) and I remember you had given me some good pointers.
And like help you and all here. I was in the same place six years ago and also I comes from structured world , Pascal , Omnis 3 and Old Classic Mac Toolbox was my background when I "discover" Squeak . I port my old MorphicGreeting from 3.2 times so could have some ideas to develop.
Stay tuned.
Edgar
Was easier as I think, I need save the original 3.2 from six years ago first in 3.8, delete all windows and create the "greeting card" again. This one was saved and voila, SqueakLight could open without any complain. I put here a low quality pict, the music was once send to list by Alan and I bet nobody find cute kitties into his desk as me
The Project with photo and music is 408 k , so is big to save on the swiki, but I could send to any.
Edgar:
That's a cute kitten! I am interested in looking into the project file. Can you send it to me or let me know how best to source it.
Regards,
On 7/6/08, Edgar J. De Cleene edgardec2001@yahoo.com.ar wrote:
El 7/6/08 5:39 AM, "Prashanth Hebbar" hebbarp@gmail.com escribió:
Thanks Edgar. My failure with Flash is due to my own doing (not being persistent) and I remember you had given me some good pointers.
And like help you and all here. I was in the same place six years ago and also I comes from structured
world ,
Pascal , Omnis 3 and Old Classic Mac Toolbox was my background when I "discover" Squeak . I port my old MorphicGreeting from 3.2 times so could have some ideas to develop.
Stay tuned.
Edgar
Was easier as I think, I need save the original 3.2 from six years ago first in 3.8, delete all windows and create the "greeting card" again. This one was saved and voila, SqueakLight could open without any complain. I put here a low quality pict, the music was once send to list by Alan and I bet nobody find cute kitties into his desk as me
The Project with photo and music is 408 k , so is big to save on the swiki, but I could send to any.
Beginners mailing list Beginners@lists.squeakfoundation.org http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
El 7/6/08 7:36 AM, "Prashanth Hebbar" hebbarp@gmail.com escribió:
Edgar:
That's a cute kitten! I am interested in looking into the project file. Can you send it to me or let me know how best to source it.
Regards,
Here the fileOut of original 2002 project. Was one of my first on Squeak. Later or tomorrow i look in back ups , have some older of how to read the colors from external ascii file and have Squeak "learn" this new colors. Could be useful to some...
Works with GreetingMorph new, the pict and the midi should be on the same Squeak folder. Somewhere I have a modern version for explore the computer for files...
I on a half hour and then I start to watch formula one
Edgar
I need to run Seaside on a Debian Linux machine (a public web server) to which I do not have console access.
I do not have access to *any* Debian Linux machine, in fact, I have my PowerBook G4, and that's it.
I understand that I can run a Squeak package that implements VNC, and that there is a "headless" mode that should allow me to launch Squeak w/o any GUI.
It is not clear to me which parts of this are platform-independent and how to get them loaded into a running image w/o having GUI access to it.
I'm not even sure that I'm asking the question particularly clearly, but I'm hoping someone can decipher my ravings.
-jmc
Am 11.07.2008 um 19:05 schrieb John Chandler:
I need to run Seaside on a Debian Linux machine (a public web server) to which I do not have console access.
I do not have access to *any* Debian Linux machine, in fact, I have my PowerBook G4, and that's it.
I understand that I can run a Squeak package that implements VNC, and that there is a "headless" mode that should allow me to launch Squeak w/o any GUI.
It is not clear to me which parts of this are platform-independent and how to get them loaded into a running image w/o having GUI access to it.
I'm not even sure that I'm asking the question particularly clearly, but I'm hoping someone can decipher my ravings.
Prepare your image locally, make sure VNC works, and if everything is to your liking, move it to the server.
- Bert -
Hi John,
John Chandler wrote:
I understand that I can run a Squeak package that implements VNC, and that there is a "headless" mode that should allow me to launch Squeak w/o any GUI.
It is not clear to me which parts of this are platform-independent and how to get them loaded into a running image w/o having GUI access to it.
I'm not even sure that I'm asking the question particularly clearly, but I'm hoping someone can decipher my ravings.
Yes, VNC access to a headless Squeak image is one of Squeak magics a love most. You just need to install a package RemoteFrameBuffer in your image, set the parameters then run headless and you'll be able to connect to image and see its full GUI remotely. No X needed on host machine. Pure magic :)
Janko
On Jul 11, 2008, at 7:34 PM, Janko Mivšek wrote:
Hi John,
John Chandler wrote:
I understand that I can run a Squeak package that implements VNC, and that there is a "headless" mode that should allow me to launch Squeak w/o any GUI. It is not clear to me which parts of this are platform-independent and how to get them loaded into a running image w/o having GUI access to it. I'm not even sure that I'm asking the question particularly clearly, but I'm hoping someone can decipher my ravings.
Yes, VNC access to a headless Squeak image is one of Squeak magics a love most. You just need to install a package RemoteFrameBuffer in your image, set the parameters then run headless and you'll be able to connect to image and see its full GUI remotely. No X needed on host machine. Pure magic :)
Janko
OK, but if my image is for Mac OS X PPC, and the target machine is Debian x86, will the image I copy to it even start up?
-jmc
On Sat, 2008-07-12 at 10:36 +0200, John Chandler wrote:
On Jul 11, 2008, at 7:34 PM, Janko Mivšek wrote:
Hi John,
John Chandler wrote:
I understand that I can run a Squeak package that implements VNC, and that there is a "headless" mode that should allow me to launch Squeak w/o any GUI. It is not clear to me which parts of this are platform-independent and how to get them loaded into a running image w/o having GUI access to it. I'm not even sure that I'm asking the question particularly clearly, but I'm hoping someone can decipher my ravings.
Yes, VNC access to a headless Squeak image is one of Squeak magics a love most. You just need to install a package RemoteFrameBuffer in your image, set the parameters then run headless and you'll be able to connect to image and see its full GUI remotely. No X needed on host machine. Pure magic :)
Janko
OK, but if my image is for Mac OS X PPC, and the target machine is Debian x86, will the image I copy to it even start up?
Don't mix vm and image. I would wonder if you've got an image that's for Mac OS X PPC. The vm is platform dependent while the image is not. It should just work that you work with the image on Mac OS PPC and the copy it to debian Intel machine and start it up.
Norbert
On Sat, Jul 12, 2008 at 10:36:50AM +0200, John Chandler wrote:
OK, but if my image is for Mac OS X PPC, and the target machine is Debian x86, will the image I copy to it even start up?
Yes, it will work fine. Amazing but true.
Dave
On Jul 12, 2008, at 1:52 PM, David T. Lewis wrote:
On Sat, Jul 12, 2008 at 10:36:50AM +0200, John Chandler wrote:
OK, but if my image is for Mac OS X PPC, and the target machine is Debian x86, will the image I copy to it even start up?
Yes, it will work fine. Amazing but true.
Thanks to all who responded. I suppose my confusion had something to do with the different conceptual bases underlying Unices, on the one hand, and Squeak, on the other. Files vs. all-the-way-down objects. And I'm very unused to being able to get away with thinking in terms of the abstraction rather than the implementation and having things "just work."
Again, thanks.
-jmc
Am 12.07.2008 um 19:24 schrieb John Chandler:
On Jul 12, 2008, at 1:52 PM, David T. Lewis wrote:
On Sat, Jul 12, 2008 at 10:36:50AM +0200, John Chandler wrote:
OK, but if my image is for Mac OS X PPC, and the target machine is Debian x86, will the image I copy to it even start up?
Yes, it will work fine. Amazing but true.
Thanks to all who responded. I suppose my confusion had something to do with the different conceptual bases underlying Unices, on the one hand, and Squeak, on the other. Files vs. all-the-way-down objects. And I'm very unused to being able to get away with thinking in terms of the abstraction rather than the implementation and having things "just work."
Again, thanks.
We used to work hard to keep the illusion perfect :)
- Bert -
On Saturday 12 Jul 2008 2:06:50 pm John Chandler wrote:
OK, but if my image is for Mac OS X PPC, and the target machine is Debian x86, will the image I copy to it even start up?
Image files can be opened on any platform.
Make sure that you get the *virtual machine* for the Debian x86. Install squeakvm package to get the VM binaries.
Subbu
I now need to see why the RFB package appears not to be working on Debian.
I loaded the package on my laptop, started the server, and verified that I could connect to it with Chicken of the VNC. I did not stop the server, I saved the changes with a slightly altered name, and scp'd the image and changes files that had that altered name over to the Debian machine.
I started squeak with the command,
nohup squeak -headless ~/squeaks/*image &
(in the directory, "squeaks," there are two files, the image and the changes)
This process appears to be running. "ps -ef" shows:
squeakvm -headless [~]/squeaks/Squeak3.9-final-7067_RFB.image squeak.image
When I use Chicken to try to start a session, changing only the hostname (which is a raw IP address), I get a "connection refused" message.
I have been told by this ISP that they are not blocking port 5900, and the nohup.out file is still zero length. Is there something that netstat would reveal about whether the RFB app came up properly and is actually listening on 5900? Any other clues?
-jmc
On Jul 14, 2008, at 3:20 AM, K. K. Subramaniam wrote:
On Saturday 12 Jul 2008 2:06:50 pm John Chandler wrote:
OK, but if my image is for Mac OS X PPC, and the target machine is Debian x86, will the image I copy to it even start up?
Image files can be opened on any platform.
Make sure that you get the *virtual machine* for the Debian x86. Install squeakvm package to get the VM binaries.
Subbu _______________________________________________ Beginners mailing list Beginners@lists.squeakfoundation.org http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
NOTICE: Due to Presidential Executive Orders, the National Security Agency may have read this email without warning, warrant, or notice. They may do this without any judicial or legislative oversight. You have little recourse nor protection except to call for the impeachment of the current President.
I installed the RFB (vnc viewer/server) package on my Debian server, to which I don't have console access. There appears to be a problem with it, because the connection is refused.
I loaded the package on my laptop, started the server, and verified that I could connect to it with Chicken of the VNC. I did not stop the server, I saved the changes with a slightly altered name, and scp'd the image and changes files that had that altered name over to the Debian machine.
I started squeak with the command,
nohup squeak -headless ~/squeaks/*image &
(in the directory, "squeaks," there are two files, the image and the changes)
This process appears to be running. "ps -ef" shows:
squeakvm -headless [~]/squeaks/Squeak3.9-final-7067_RFB.image squeak.image
When I use Chicken to try to start a session, changing only the hostname (which is a raw IP address), I get a "connection refused" message.
I have been told by this ISP that they are not blocking port 5900, and I ran in.telnetd in debug mode on port 5900 and got a connection, so it appears that this is true. The nohup.out file is still zero length. Are there any other log files that might be informative? Is there something that netstat would reveal about whether the RFB app came up properly and is actually listening on 5900? Any other clues?
-jmc
There was a problem a year or so ago with RFBs with new images - which I don't know if it was fixed. You should search the archives. See if this helps:
http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.smalltalk.squeak.general/112180
On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 3:48 PM, John Chandler morph@growler.net wrote:
I installed the RFB (vnc viewer/server) package on my Debian server, to which I don't have console access. There appears to be a problem with it, because the connection is refused.
I loaded the package on my laptop, started the server, and verified that I could connect to it with Chicken of the VNC. I did not stop the server, I saved the changes with a slightly altered name, and scp'd the image and changes files that had that altered name over to the Debian machine.
I started squeak with the command,
nohup squeak -headless ~/squeaks/*image &
(in the directory, "squeaks," there are two files, the image and the changes)
This process appears to be running. "ps -ef" shows:
squeakvm -headless [~]/squeaks/Squeak3.9-final-7067_RFB.image squeak.image
When I use Chicken to try to start a session, changing only the hostname (which is a raw IP address), I get a "connection refused" message.
I have been told by this ISP that they are not blocking port 5900, and I ran in.telnetd in debug mode on port 5900 and got a connection, so it appears that this is true. The nohup.out file is still zero length. Are there any other log files that might be informative? Is there something that netstat would reveal about whether the RFB app came up properly and is actually listening on 5900? Any other clues?
-jmc
Beginners mailing list Beginners@lists.squeakfoundation.org http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
Hi John,
on Wed, 16 Jul 2008 00:48:42 +0200, you wrote:
I installed the RFB (vnc viewer/server) package on my Debian server, to which I don't have console access. There appears to be a problem with it, because the connection is refused.
I loaded the package on my laptop, started the server, and verified that I could connect to it with Chicken of the VNC. I did not stop the server, I saved the changes with a slightly altered name, and scp'd the image and changes files that had that altered name over to the Debian machine.
I started squeak with the command,
nohup squeak -headless ~/squeaks/*image &(in the directory, "squeaks," there are two files, the image and the changes)
This process appears to be running. "ps -ef" shows:
squeakvm -headless [~]/squeaks/Squeak3.9-final-7067_RFB.imagesqueak.image
When I use Chicken to try to start a session, changing only the hostname (which is a raw IP address), I get a "connection refused" message.
I have been told by this ISP that they are not blocking port 5900, and I ran in.telnetd in debug mode on port 5900 and got a connection, so it appears that this is true. The nohup.out file is still zero length. Are there any other log files that might be informative? Is there something that netstat would reveal about whether the RFB app came up properly and is actually listening on 5900? Any other clues?
Did you configure RFBServer to allow remote connections?
Before you saved the snapshot, did you close all connections (also from RFBServer's connections submenue)?
HTH.
/Klaus
-jmc
On Jul 16, 2008, at 1:06 AM, Klaus D. Witzel wrote:
Hi John,
on Wed, 16 Jul 2008 00:48:42 +0200, you wrote:
I installed the RFB (vnc viewer/server) package on my Debian server, to which I don't have console access. There appears to be a problem with it, because the connection is refused.
I loaded the package on my laptop, started the server, and verified that I could connect to it with Chicken of the VNC. I did not stop the server, I saved the changes with a slightly altered name, and scp'd the image and changes files that had that altered name over to the Debian machine.
I started squeak with the command,
nohup squeak -headless ~/squeaks/*image &(in the directory, "squeaks," there are two files, the image and the changes)
This process appears to be running. "ps -ef" shows:
squeakvm -headless [~]/squeaks/Squeak3.9-final-7067_RFB.imagesqueak.image
When I use Chicken to try to start a session, changing only the hostname (which is a raw IP address), I get a "connection refused" message.
I have been told by this ISP that they are not blocking port 5900, and I ran in.telnetd in debug mode on port 5900 and got a connection, so it appears that this is true. The nohup.out file is still zero length. Are there any other log files that might be informative? Is there something that netstat would reveal about whether the RFB app came up properly and is actually listening on 5900? Any other clues?
Did you configure RFBServer to allow remote connections?
I just checked, and all the "connections" buttons are active (filled in). I am sure I haven't messed with that since saving. However, it can't hurt to save and copy again.
Before you saved the snapshot, did you close all connections (also from RFBServer's connections submenue)?
No. I guess you're saying that I should. Right?
HTH.
/Klaus
-jmc
Beginners mailing list Beginners@lists.squeakfoundation.org http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
On Jul 16, 2008, at 1:06 AM, Klaus D. Witzel wrote:
Hi John,
on Wed, 16 Jul 2008 00:48:42 +0200, you wrote:
I installed the RFB (vnc viewer/server) package on my Debian server, to which I don't have console access. There appears to be a problem with it, because the connection is refused.
[...]
Did you configure RFBServer to allow remote connections?
Before you saved the snapshot, did you close all connections (also from RFBServer's connections submenue)?
Yes. The problem was more basic: root privileges are required. D-OH!
I should have known this, but while I avoid running as root as a very ingrained policy, this makes it impossible to open a socket to the outside world.
I looked around for a discussion of security issues with Seaside, and didn't come up with much. Are there ways of limiting the damage a malicious person could get a root-enabled Squeak to do? I know it's a bit more obscure than Apache, but still.
Thanks for answering.
-jmc
Am 16.07.2008 um 04:55 schrieb John Chandler:
On Jul 16, 2008, at 1:06 AM, Klaus D. Witzel wrote:
Hi John,
on Wed, 16 Jul 2008 00:48:42 +0200, you wrote:
I installed the RFB (vnc viewer/server) package on my Debian server, to which I don't have console access. There appears to be a problem with it, because the connection is refused.
[...]
Did you configure RFBServer to allow remote connections?
Before you saved the snapshot, did you close all connections (also from RFBServer's connections submenue)?
Yes. The problem was more basic: root privileges are required. D-OH!
I should have known this, but while I avoid running as root as a very ingrained policy, this makes it impossible to open a socket to the outside world.
I looked around for a discussion of security issues with Seaside, and didn't come up with much.
I am certain there are discussions of this. You should ask on the Seaside list, too.
I don't think anyone serious runs their Seaside installation as root. Most common is to proxy via Apache, but you can also use firewall settings to make your Seaside port appear as port 80 to the outside world, even though it actually is running on a non-privileged port.
Are there ways of limiting the damage a malicious person could get a root-enabled Squeak to do? I know it's a bit more obscure than Apache, but still.
Thanks for answering.
Again, I'm not saying running as root is a good idea, but you can enable the VM-level file sand-boxing:
SecurityManager default disableFileAccess
which will restrict all file access to
SecurityManager default untrustedUserDirectory
Of course this only makes sense if you do not include the FFI plugin which can call any C function in any library directly. And besides, do not run as root.
- Bert -
Bert Freudenberg wrote:
I don't think anyone serious runs their Seaside installation as root. Most common is to proxy via Apache, but you can also use firewall settings to make your Seaside port appear as port 80 to the outside world, even though it actually is running on a non-privileged port.
This is solid advice, but I think John's issue is with his VNC connection. He's been saying that's on port 5900, which is outside the superuser range (1-1023 for those keeping score at home).
I'd recommend trying to telnet to the VNC server while the image is running. If you get a bunch of text with the letters rfb in it, then you know it's working.
- Ken
beginners@lists.squeakfoundation.org
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