I'm in a position where I want to learn Squeak/Smalltalk because it's cool, but I find myself thinking that I should spend my time working on something that might actually advance my career. I used to be a Java Programmer, but am now a Build Engineer, so I don't directly program anymore. I feel that I should be keeping my Java skills up... but that just isn't as spiffy
Anyone else in this boat? Is there a Squeak Support Group? A 12 step program? Anyone have a good rationale why I can go ahead and spend my time on Squeak without feeling guilty? :) :)
On Dec 16, 2008, at 7:38 AM, Ryan Zerby wrote:
I'm in a position where I want to learn Squeak/Smalltalk because it's cool, but I find myself thinking that I should spend my time working on something that might actually advance my career. I used to be a Java Programmer, but am now a Build Engineer, so I don't directly program anymore. I feel that I should be keeping my Java skills up... but that just isn't as spiffy
Anyone else in this boat? Is there a Squeak Support Group? A 12 step program? Anyone have a good rationale why I can go ahead and spend my time on Squeak without feeling guilty? :) :)
I'm in that boat. I'm a full-time developer working mainly in Java. I've been learning Smalltalk for about six months now. It's definitely my favorite OO language. The number of available Smalltalk jobs doesn't help my motivation. I'd like to help promote the use of Smalltalk and will probably give some presentations on it in 2009.
There is a new book on Smalltalk (or is it just on Seaside?) coming out next year by Randal Schwartz. Maybe that will broaden the interest in Smalltalk.
There are some rough edges for me that make it difficult to convince others to give Smalltalk a try. The biggest issues I see are:
1) difficulty of creating GUI applications
I've found Morphic difficult to learn and lacking in widget layout capabilities. Deploying GUI applications to be double-clickable and run in a way that the user isn't aware that they are running in a Smalltalk environment is perhaps a 10 step process that is very complicated. I don't believe there is a mature GUI library for creating applications with a native look and feel.
2) difficulty in integrating with the outside world
Smalltalk can seem like an island that doesn't want to play well with other programming languages and the OS environment. For example, I can't easily invoke existing Java code or run headless to do script- like things. I know other people are successful in running Squeak headless, but I haven't been able to get it to work.
3) lack of standards conformance
It seems that the popular Smalltalk environments all deviate from the ANSI standard in various ways. For example, there are many Squeak extensions that aren't supported in other Smalltalks.
4) lack of agreement on direction
This is very apparent in the recent email threads. It's unsettling for newbies. Nobody wants to invest a large amount of time learning about something that seems to be fracturing before their eyes.
All that said, I LOVE Smalltalk syntax and development environments! I want it to succeed, but I think the issues above need to be addressed in order for that to happen. I'm biding my time now by learning Clojure, a functional programming language that is radically different from Java and Smalltalk. I plan to return to investigating Smalltalk in about five months.
--- Mark Volkmann
You've hit on a lot of my exact reasons. When I make an application, it would be nice to be able to show it to my friends, and there is zero chance that they will actually install squeak. I can get away with this for some things by using the webbased squeak app... but not for desktop things. I like writing casual games and the AI applicable to them.
I could live with Squeak being an island if I were able to use it for my day-to-day internet use. From what I've seen, squeak doesn't even have a usable webbrowser... I can't read the newbies list from inside squeak, nor can I search the web for documentation and such.
So, I can't really run outside of squeak, and I can't really run inside of squeak, but have this weird hybrid.
A tip for integrating Squeak into your non-Squeak work.
Use it for tools, reports, and other little bits of glue. People don't think of Squeak as a great glue language, but I've had excellent results.
Since there is almost no OS integration, you can install Squeak merely by unzipping a file. Unlike a lot of other languages that need a shell (and is often locked down) Squeak does not.
I use Seaside to develop little desktop applications at work. I put a one-click install on a local file server, Since one-click only requires extracting to a folder, even our relatively locked down users at work can extract a ZIP to a folder. I put two icons in the folder. One to start the server (minimized) and one that is just a URL to localhost.
I have dozens of unsophisticated, regular users and none of them complain about Squeak's looks. In fact, since I import our corporate brand CSS, it all looks very official.
On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 9:06 AM, Ryan Zerby tahognome@gmail.com wrote:
You've hit on a lot of my exact reasons. When I make an application, it would be nice to be able to show it to my friends, and there is zero chance that they will actually install squeak. I can get away with this for some things by using the webbased squeak app... but not for desktop things. I like writing casual games and the AI applicable to them.
I could live with Squeak being an island if I were able to use it for my day-to-day internet use. From what I've seen, squeak doesn't even have a usable webbrowser... I can't read the newbies list from inside squeak, nor can I search the web for documentation and such.
So, I can't really run outside of squeak, and I can't really run inside of squeak, but have this weird hybrid. _______________________________________________ Beginners mailing list Beginners@lists.squeakfoundation.org http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
On Dec 16, 2008, at 9:49 AM, David Mitchell wrote:
A tip for integrating Squeak into your non-Squeak work.
Use it for tools, reports, and other little bits of glue. People don't think of Squeak as a great glue language, but I've had excellent results.
Since there is almost no OS integration, you can install Squeak merely by unzipping a file. Unlike a lot of other languages that need a shell (and is often locked down) Squeak does not.
I use Seaside to develop little desktop applications at work. I put a one-click install on a local file server, Since one-click only requires extracting to a folder, even our relatively locked down users at work can extract a ZIP to a folder. I put two icons in the folder. One to start the server (minimized) and one that is just a URL to localhost.
I have dozens of unsophisticated, regular users and none of them complain about Squeak's looks. In fact, since I import our corporate brand CSS, it all looks very official.
That sounds great for applications with a web interface, but I wish there was a more attractive, easier way to do the same thing with Squeak-based non-web applications.
On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 9:06 AM, Ryan Zerby tahognome@gmail.com wrote: You've hit on a lot of my exact reasons. When I make an application, it would be nice to be able to show it to my friends, and there is zero chance that they will actually install squeak. I can get away with this for some things by using the webbased squeak app... but not for desktop things. I like writing casual games and the AI applicable to them.
I could live with Squeak being an island if I were able to use it for my day-to-day internet use. From what I've seen, squeak doesn't even have a usable webbrowser... I can't read the newbies list from inside squeak, nor can I search the web for documentation and such.
So, I can't really run outside of squeak, and I can't really run inside of squeak, but have this weird hybrid. _______________________________________________ Beginners mailing list Beginners@lists.squeakfoundation.org http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
Beginners mailing list Beginners@lists.squeakfoundation.org http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
--- Mark Volkmann
Mark Volkmann wrote:
That sounds great for applications with a web interface, but I wish there was a more attractive, easier way to do the same thing with Squeak-based non-web applications.
I think that is mainly a problem of Squeak though, not Smalltalk in general. I fully agree though, the UI system of Squeak is just not good.
On Tue, 16 Dec 2008 20:50:58 +0100, Claus Kick wrote:
Mark Volkmann wrote:
That sounds great for applications with a web interface, but I wish there was a more attractive, easier way to do the same thing with Squeak-based non-web applications.
I think that is mainly a problem of Squeak though, not Smalltalk in general. I fully agree though, the UI system of Squeak is just not good.
Does it just look not good to you (have you checked UI-Enhancements/Polymorph) or what part of it do you mean?
/Klaus
Klaus D. Witzel wrote:
On Tue, 16 Dec 2008 20:50:58 +0100, Claus Kick wrote:
Mark Volkmann wrote:
That sounds great for applications with a web interface, but I wish there was a more attractive, easier way to do the same thing with Squeak-based non-web applications.
I think that is mainly a problem of Squeak though, not Smalltalk in general. I fully agree though, the UI system of Squeak is just not good.
Does it just look not good to you (have you checked UI-Enhancements/Polymorph) or what part of it do you mean?
No, I have yet to check Polymorph. I must be blind, but I dont see it on SqueakMap - where is it?
Other than the looks, I do not like the "feeling", the speed, the absence of native widgets (why do everything yourself? you have an OS to participate from!)
I know, even Cincom canned their "first new owner-drawn system, then on top of that native widgets if the platform allows"-Projects (Pollock/Panda/Chagall). Having worked a bit in that direction, I also know how tedious or more likely impossible a task this is.
Still, one has dreams or graphics contexts being written to the GPU directly ... hm, sounds like OpenGL, doesnt it?
On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 3:43 PM, Claus Kick claus_kick@web.de wrote:
Klaus D. Witzel wrote:
On Tue, 16 Dec 2008 20:50:58 +0100, Claus Kick wrote:
Other than the looks, I do not like the "feeling", the speed, the absence of native widgets (why do everything yourself? you have an OS to participate from!)
I really like WxSqueak (http://www.wxsqueak.org; make sure to use the 0.5.1 version for the best experience!), I just wish I had a little more energy to be able to load it into a "current" Squeak system to take advantage of the new development tools. However, if you don't mind programming in a 3.8? image, you should check it out. It takes a custom VM as well, and I have had a hard time loading all the "goodies" I wanted into an image.
I know, even Cincom canned their "first new owner-drawn system, then on top of that native widgets if the platform allows"-Projects (Pollock/Panda/Chagall). Having worked a bit in that direction, I also know how tedious or more likely impossible a task this is.
Still, one has dreams or graphics contexts being written to the GPU directly ... hm, sounds like OpenGL, doesnt it?
I don't think you can do that in WxSqueak, but you can do some alpha blending...
Rob
On Dec 16, 2008, at 5:24 PM, Rob Rothwell wrote:
On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 3:43 PM, Claus Kick claus_kick@web.de wrote: Klaus D. Witzel wrote: On Tue, 16 Dec 2008 20:50:58 +0100, Claus Kick wrote: Other than the looks, I do not like the "feeling", the speed, the absence of native widgets (why do everything yourself? you have an OS to participate from!)
I really like WxSqueak (http://www.wxsqueak.org; make sure to use the 0.5.1 version for the best experience!), I just wish I had a little more energy to be able to load it into a "current" Squeak system to take advantage of the new development tools. However, if you don't mind programming in a 3.8? image, you should check it out. It takes a custom VM as well, and I have had a hard time loading all the "goodies" I wanted into an image.
I started to look into WxSqueak, but then found out that development of it had pretty much been abandoned. Is that still the case?
--- Mark Volkmann
On Tue, 16 Dec 2008 21:43:41 +0100, Claus Kick wrote:
Klaus D. Witzel wrote:
On Tue, 16 Dec 2008 20:50:58 +0100, Claus Kick wrote:
Mark Volkmann wrote:
That sounds great for applications with a web interface, but I wish there was a more attractive, easier way to do the same thing with Squeak-based non-web applications.
I think that is mainly a problem of Squeak though, not Smalltalk in general. I fully agree though, the UI system of Squeak is just not good.
Does it just look not good to you (have you checked UI-Enhancements/Polymorph) or what part of it do you mean?
No, I have yet to check Polymorph. I must be blind, but I dont see it on SqueakMap - where is it?
Polymorph (formerly UIEnhancements) is mentioned here,
- http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2008-December/133171....
Other than the looks, I do not like the "feeling", the speed, the absence of native widgets (why do everything yourself? you have an OS to participate from!)
I'd appreciate your feedback on polymorph (feeling, widgets, "native", themes).
/Klaus
I know, even Cincom canned their "first new owner-drawn system, then on top of that native widgets if the platform allows"-Projects (Pollock/Panda/Chagall). Having worked a bit in that direction, I also know how tedious or more likely impossible a task this is.
Still, one has dreams or graphics contexts being written to the GPU directly ... hm, sounds like OpenGL, doesnt it?
You've hit on a lot of my exact reasons. When I make an application, it would be nice to be able to show it to my friends, and there is zero chance that they will actually install squeak. I can get away with this for some things by using the webbased squeak app... but not for desktop things. I like writing casual games and the AI applicable to them.
The fact that Sophie is available as a self-contained app based on Squeak (and MIT's Scratch? ) shows that with the correct dedication, and by following the correct procedures, one can package up an app using Squeak and have it be mass-consumed.
I worried about what you say too, but now what I'm working on can be entirely web-based so Squeak only needs to exist on the back-end. So that is lucky.
I could live with Squeak being an island if I were able to use it for my day-to-day internet use. From what I've seen, squeak doesn't even have a usable webbrowser... I can't read the newbies list from inside squeak, nor can I search the web for documentation and such.
At one time, Celeste was a much-used email client from within Squeak, and people browsed the web from within Squeak using Scamper. I have experimented with both in the past. I found Scamper was great for viewing the Swiki. Celeste was only POP at the time, IIRC, which kind of drove me away.
Over time, unfortunately, bit-rot takes these at one time completely functional applications and gives them subtle bugs. Keyboard focus problems, other keyboard command problems. It also seems Morph changes really have wide-ranging effects.
So, I can't really run outside of squeak, and I can't really run inside of squeak, but have this weird hybrid.
I think the goal at one time *was* to use Squeak as an entirely self-contained system, but it seems that the focus of today's leadership team is to make it a development platform only. That is kind of sad to me, because my initial thrill at Squeak was by looking at it as a platform. Unfortunately, like I said above, many of its applications are unstable and unmaintained in today's images.
If you are curious, pick up a 3.6 or 3.2 image and see what it used to be like...
- TimJ
On Dec 16, 2008, at 10:54 AM, tjohnson@iwu.edu wrote:
You've hit on a lot of my exact reasons. When I make an application, it would be nice to be able to show it to my friends, and there is zero chance that they will actually install squeak. I can get away with this for some things by using the webbased squeak app... but not for desktop things. I like writing casual games and the AI applicable to them.
The fact that Sophie is available as a self-contained app based on Squeak (and MIT's Scratch? ) shows that with the correct dedication, and by following the correct procedures, one can package up an app using Squeak and have it be mass-consumed.
It's the fact that creating a self-contained app. based on Squeak requires lots of dedication and following lots of procedures that is the issue. I'm surprised that those steps haven't been automated more. It seems to me we should be able to press a button, select a top-level class and have the application be generated in a way that is ready to run standalone.
--- Mark Volkmann
Hi Ryan,
How about taking some Java libraries relevant to your area of interest and porting them to Squeak/Smalltalk?
I've ended up using Python for most of my work because of the libraries available (BeautifulSoup is one). Although Python is OK, I would love to be working in a Smalltalk environment. To keep involved in Squeak/Smalltalk I have been porting some of the libraries that forced the decision. This meant reading and understanding a lot of relevant Python code and working in Squeak on something the community may find useful. It seems like a good compromise to me.
Now if only I had time to release something useable? ;)
- Zulq
Ryan Zerby wrote:
I'm in a position where I want to learn Squeak/Smalltalk because it's cool, but I find myself thinking that I should spend my time working on something that might actually advance my career. I used to be a Java Programmer, but am now a Build Engineer, so I don't directly program anymore. I feel that I should be keeping my Java skills up... but that just isn't as spiffy
Anyone else in this boat? Is there a Squeak Support Group? A 12 step program? Anyone have a good rationale why I can go ahead and spend my time on Squeak without feeling guilty? :) :)
Hi Zulq,
It is good to hear about efforts to port things from Python to Smalltalk. Much needed because for such task one must know both languages well. I hope you'll start releasing soon. And don't forget the hardest task, persuading Smalltalkers what are your ports about :)
Janko
Zulq Alam wrote:
Hi Ryan,
How about taking some Java libraries relevant to your area of interest and porting them to Squeak/Smalltalk?
I've ended up using Python for most of my work because of the libraries available (BeautifulSoup is one). Although Python is OK, I would love to be working in a Smalltalk environment. To keep involved in Squeak/Smalltalk I have been porting some of the libraries that forced the decision. This meant reading and understanding a lot of relevant Python code and working in Squeak on something the community may find useful. It seems like a good compromise to me.
Now if only I had time to release something useable? ;)
- Zulq
Ryan Zerby wrote:
I'm in a position where I want to learn Squeak/Smalltalk because it's cool, but I find myself thinking that I should spend my time working on something that might actually advance my career. I used to be a Java Programmer, but am now a Build Engineer, so I don't directly program anymore. I feel that I should be keeping my Java skills up... but that just isn't as spiffy
Anyone else in this boat? Is there a Squeak Support Group? A 12 step program? Anyone have a good rationale why I can go ahead and spend my time on Squeak without feeling guilty? :) :)
Beginners mailing list Beginners@lists.squeakfoundation.org http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
If you don't program for your job anymore, how could working with Java advance your career? If you already know Java, wouldn't you be well-suited to already take another Java- related job if you wanted?
Maybe you could advance your career just from using what you find to be productive. Or maybe you could just have fun. :)
You could maybe look at my story as a case study. I've been looking for something meaningful to do with Squeak for almost ten years. Numerous starts and stops of learning the system. Now though, at work I have the freedom to develop systems that make me more productive, so I am finally beginning to cobble together a working system to keep track of my employees' schedules, using Seaside, the Chronology package, and other Squeak facilities. I find it rewarding... every time I have an "a-ha" moment, I really get a kick!
- TimJ
----- Original Message ----- From: Ryan Zerby tahognome@gmail.com Date: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 7:38 am Subject: [Newbies] Squeak Guilt To: beginners@lists.squeakfoundation.org
I'm in a position where I want to learn Squeak/Smalltalk because it's cool, but I find myself thinking that I should spend my time working on something that might actually advance my career. I used to be a Java Programmer, but am now a Build Engineer, so I don't directly program anymore. I feel that I should be keeping my Java skills up... but that just isn't as spiffy
Anyone else in this boat? Is there a Squeak Support Group? A 12 step program? Anyone have a good rationale why I can go ahead and spend my time on Squeak without feeling guilty? :) :) _______________________________________________ Beginners mailing list Beginners@lists.squeakfoundation.org http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
Java would advance my career because I would remain competitive as a Java programmer, should I need to change employers at some point... C++, Actionscript and DirectX would help me with the company I'm already at.
However, I like your advice that being productive is even more important than knowing any particular language skill. It's very much the kind of bigger picture rationale that I was looking for!
Truth is that getting a programming job at this point may be at odds with career advancement. I really should be looking at moving into management... and that is where personalized tools would help, as opposed to the collaborative tools I use now.
Ryan Zerby wrote:
I'm in a position where I want to learn Squeak/Smalltalk because it's cool, but I find myself thinking that I should spend my time working on something that might actually advance my career. I used to be a Java Programmer, but am now a Build Engineer, so I don't directly program anymore. I feel that I should be keeping my Java skills up... but that just isn't as spiffy
Anyone else in this boat? Is there a Squeak Support Group? A 12 step program? Anyone have a good rationale why I can go ahead and spend my time on Squeak without feeling guilty? :) :)
I am in that boat and I think I have at least sunk it once. I learned Smalltalk (VS) as my first programming language at uni in 2000.
Then I learned a couple of other languages and then some years later, I actually worked as Smalltalker (VS) for a year and a half before switching jobs in order to move in together with my girlfriend.
Nowadays, Perl and mostly Java earn my keep, and you would think that I would never even think about Smalltalk any longer. Well, no, still there, still interested, still coding Smalltalk (VWNC, Dolphin NC, Squeak) in my rather limited spare time, though, still cursing about some of the nonsense "features" Java offers.
I *loved* being a professional Smalltalker, but unfortunately there were wider circumstances.
What I think is nice about Smalltalk is the openess of the system, which can also be a curse of course.
For a simple example: In VS, the default File>>move:to: does not overwrite existing files. That was unnerving, for the API just differs whether you use 0 or 1 as parameter in the API call. Well, in Smalltalk, you just create File>>overwritemove:to: and set the parameter for the API call, then just use that method. Try to do that in Java, or have a look at the java.io.File API ("rename() - what actually happens, whether the File is copied to the new name or simply renamed is depending on the platform").
Smalltalk _is_ fun, has always been, will always be, and, at the right time, at the right place, you can even earn money with it.
beginners@lists.squeakfoundation.org
-
Claus Kick -
David Mitchell -
Janko Mivšek -
Klaus D. Witzel -
Mark Volkmann -
Rob Rothwell -
Ryan Zerby -
tjohnson＠iwu.edu -
Zulq Alam