Heh, you beated me for a few seconds :)

Gonzalo Zabala wrote:

Hi, I think the best spanish translation is

• Make a Project: Comenzar un Proyecto.

Oh! I like "Comenzar un Proyecto", I was thinking on the lines of "Crear un Proyecto", but I like better yours.

"Comenzar un Proyecto" is "To start a project" and "Crear un Proyecto" is "To creat a proyect"

Both of this are in the infinitive form, if you want to conjugate it like talking to somebody (imperative), it'd be:

"Comienza un Proyecto" (for Start) or "Crea un Proyecto" (for Create)

now, this last two are somehow more subtle, as in Argentina and some other places, we normally use a different conjugation.

• Gallery of Projects: Galería de Proyectos

yes!

• Tutorials and Demos: Tutoriales y Demos

I would propose:

- Tutorials and Demos: Clases y Ejemplos (that'd literally be Lessons/Lectures and Examples)

I find the other terms ("Tutoriales y Demos") very technical, and I'm not sure how appealing to kids they are (or if they even are actual words, although we use them a lot)

oh well, anyway, I thought this was not going to be easy, sorry for the noice

richie

Thank you Gera and Gonzalo,

Right now, it would look like the attachd picture. Please let me know if there is a problem.

-- Yoshiki

At Tue, 28 Jul 2009 15:58:17 +0200 (CEST), Markus Schlager wrote:

Hi Yoshiki,

German translations exist already and show up correctly in etoys (squeakland-OLPC #2139). Here they are:

...

• Make A Project: Neues Projekt
• Gallery of Projects: Projektgalerie (or Projekt-Galerie)
• Tutorials And Demos: Anleitungen und Beispiele

Thanks!

-- Yoshiki

At Tue, 28 Jul 2009 11:16:39 -0300, Marta Voelcker wrote:

Yoshiki, In portuguese

• Make A Project: Novo projeto
• Gallery of Projects: Galeria de projetos
• Tutorials And Demos: Tutoriais

Just checking, but you would rather not add "And Demos" for the last one, yes?

-- Yoshiki

And now in french !

• Make A Project: Démarrer un nouveau projet
• Gallery of Projects: Gallerie de projets
• Tutorials And Demos: Lessons et exemples

That's quick. It looks like:

-- Yoshiki

At Tue, 28 Jul 2009 21:56:00 +0700, Serge Stinckwich wrote:

Sorry i loose my french ...

Tutorials And Demos : Leçons et Exemples

Serge! French cannot lose French! What matters with you!? ^^;

-- Yoshiki

On 28.07.2009, at 12:20, Yoshiki Ohshima wrote:

Hi, Nikolay,

...

It seems to be that Russian language does not work yet (using Etoys- To-Go), when changing the language from the tools bar, it tries to install the fonts (FontRussianEnvironment.sar), but they are missed, return an error.

However, the Russian translation is:

Make A Project: Начать новый проект Gallery of Projects: Галерея проектов Tutorials And Demos: Уроки и примеры

In the current timeframe, I'm afraid to say that non-latin1 languages is beyond our capacity. (It should work if we have the font file there, or on Pango.) But thank you so much for providing it and see if we can fixed in the future releases.

Well, we might ship the -LGC font variants. This would give us a much wider range of accented Latin characters, plus Cyrillic and Greek ones. On the downside the image would grow by several megabytes.

Alternatively, make some more effort to support Pango not only on Linux. Or FreeType, which will be easier but less powerful. For both of these we must include the fonts as files instead of in the image (need to ship font files to assure projects still behave identically across platforms).

- Bert -

On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 11:42 AM, Nikolay Suslovnsuslovi@gmail.com wrote:

Hello, Bert!

If it is not really hard to ship now the fonts right in the image, please, could you point, how to do that? The size of the image is much less critical then foreign language barrier right now. May be, have image's choice: the default for latin1 languages and another big one with additional fonts (Cyrillic etc. support)?

Several readily available Free Truetype fonts include Latin and Cyrillic. For example,

Bookman Uralic Century Schoolbook Deja Vu FreeFont Gentium Liberation Nimbus Roman Uralic Schoolbook Uralic URW Bookman, Chancery, Gothic, Palladio

Each of these font files is less than 1 MB in size. The big fonts are those that include Han characters for Chinese, Japanese, or Korean.

But agree, that in future perspective on Fonts support, it is better to have full Pango or FreeType library support.

Thanks, Nikolay

On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 11:09 PM, Bert Freudenberg bert@freudenbergs.de wrote:

...

On 28.07.2009, at 12:20, Yoshiki Ohshima wrote:

...

Hi, Nikolay,

...

It seems to be that Russian language does not work yet (using Etoys-To-Go), when changing the language from the tools bar, it tries to install the fonts (FontRussianEnvironment.sar), but they are missed, return an error.

However, the Russian translation is:

Make A Project:  Начать новый проект Gallery of Projects:  Галерея проектов Tutorials And Demos:   Уроки и примеры

Хорошо!

...

...

In the current timeframe, I'm afraid to say that non-latin1 languages is beyond our capacity. (It should work if we have the font file there, or on Pango.) But thank you so much for providing it and see if we can fixed in the future releases.

Well, we might ship the -LGC font variants. This would give us a much wider range of accented Latin characters, plus Cyrillic and Greek ones. On the downside the image would grow by several megabytes.

Alternatively, make some more effort to support Pango not only on Linux. Or FreeType, which will be easier but less powerful. For both of these we must include the fonts as files instead of in the image (need to ship font files to assure projects still behave identically across platforms).

• Bert -

---

etoys-dev mailing list etoys-dev@squeakland.org http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys-dev

---

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Bert Freudenberg wrote:

TTF files use a rather space-efficient delta coding for glyph shapes. When importing the font into the Squeak image, this is expanded to discreet bezier curves, which is the format our vector renderer understands natively.

Okay, I'll sign up for fixing that. The history of the Truetype fonts is such that the original implementation was not intended for screen text but rather for generating 3D text in Wonderland. It was only later that Yoshiki figured out how to get that stuff going to make screen fonts out of it. Unfortunately, the desire to deal with the actual glyphs for 3D stuff led to reading in the entire file instead of defining a more deferred interface.

What I can do is to change the font reader to only read the bits that are necessary to render a particular glyph and then either leave the entire TTF file externally or read the file into memory for caching. In any case, the data won't get expanded unless you are actually rendering that glyph on screen.

Cheers, - Andreas

Okay, here is a first draft (is there an Etoys repository to commit to?). Not bad for an evening's work if I may say so myself ;-)

TTFileDescription does the same thing that TTFontDescription does but operates directly on the files. Download Dejavu and then (for example) execute:

TTFileDescription installTextStyleFrom: 'DejaVuSans.ttf'.

or if you like Arial better:

TTFileDescription installTextStyleFrom: 'C:\Windows\Fonts\arial.ttf'.

Then choose the font from the font menu (Alt-k). I have been able to use Latin, Cyrillic and Greek text together just fine, see screenshot. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to make CJK scripts work; I'm not sure if these aren't included in the normal fonts I'm using or if something's broke. Yoshiki, can you check this?

To my big surprise TTFileDescription is even relatively fast - it renders a glyph in roughly a millisecond which makes it a perfectly reasonable choice to use instead of TTFontDescription. Remaining issues are the lack of housekeeping (if you move the image or the font, you are hosed), the issue that DisplayScanner still tries to render white spaces (tab, cr, etc all show up as boxes) and more testing.

If you have some "interesting" TTFs, please try them out. I'm interesting in finding fonts that don't work and debug them.

Cheers, - Andreas

On 30.07.2009, at 11:48, K. K. Subramaniam wrote:

On Thursday 30 Jul 2009 1:05:38 pm Andreas Raab wrote:

...

or if you like Arial better:

TTFileDescription installTextStyleFrom: 'C:\Windows\Fonts \arial.ttf'.

Then choose the font from the font menu (Alt-k). I have been able to use Latin, Cyrillic and Greek text together just fine, see screenshot.

Attached is what I got when I tried mixing various languages in Multilingual text editor (ar-expected.png) and in Squeak (ar-actual.png) and used DejaVuSans.ttf and Kedage-n.ttf. Greek and Kannada text is in UTF-8 encoding.

I tried Etoys 4 and Squeak 3.10.2-7179-basic with the same results.

This is expected since the file list does not use utf-8 by default to interpret the file contents. Choose "view as encoded text" from the context menu and select utf-8 there.

Are you suggesting we want to change the default encoding of text files to utf-8?

- Bert -

On 31.07.2009, at 17:27, K. K. Subramaniam wrote:

On Friday 31 Jul 2009 7:48:31 pm Bert Freudenberg wrote:

...

On 30.07.2009, at 11:48, K. K. Subramaniam wrote: This is expected since the file list does not use utf-8 by default to interpret the file contents. Choose "view as encoded text" from the context menu and select utf-8 there.

Ouch! I get bitten by this every time. Thanks.

...

Are you suggesting we want to change the default encoding of text files to utf-8?

I thought this was already the default.

No, we default to, err, latin-1 nowadays I think.

$ squeak -help | grep UTF -pathenc <enc> set encoding for pathnames (default: UTF-8) -textenc <enc> set encoding for external text (default: UTF-8)

This is the VM setting for the encoding of file names and the clipboard. This has nothing to do with the contents of files. The contents is not interpreted by the VM.

- Bert -

On 31.07.2009, at 18:53, K. K. Subramaniam wrote:

On Friday 31 Jul 2009 9:49:29 pm Bert Freudenberg wrote:

...

...

$ squeak -help | grep UTF -pathenc <enc> set encoding for pathnames (default: UTF-8) -textenc <enc> set encoding for external text (default: UTF-8)

This is the VM setting for the encoding of file names and the clipboard. This has nothing to do with the contents of files. The contents is not interpreted by the VM.

All major Linux distros have settled on UTF-8 as default encoding for text files. Isn't it time we switched too? It could help flush out encoding bugs in Squeak code. CJK locales can use textenc overrides (or this could be set in the startup code).

One issue is that interpreting any file as utf-8 is not binary-safe. When I wrote we interpret as latin-1 this actually meant we do no converting at all, the bytes in the file correspond directly to a character in the file view. After all, this is not a text file editor.

- Bert -

On 31.07.2009, at 19:24, K. K. Subramaniam wrote:

On Friday 31 Jul 2009 10:31:07 pm Bert Freudenberg wrote:

...

One issue is that interpreting any file as utf-8 is not binary-safe.

I didn't mean for any file. Just what we currently consider as ASCII. That should be safe, I presume.

What do we "currently consider as ASCII"? I am not aware of that, any file is simply displayed as it is.

- Bert -

On 30.07.2009, at 09:35, Andreas Raab wrote:

Okay, here is a first draft (is there an Etoys repository to commit to?).

We're still defining our processes. For now, upload a changeset to

http://tracker.squeakland.org/

and put it into "code to test for publication". Once it gets a positive peer review, one of the committers puts it into the update stream. Current committers are the members of the "software team", see

http://squeakland.org/about/people/

Not bad for an evening's work if I may say so myself ;-)

Will try later, but sounds good :)

- Bert -

TTFileDescription does the same thing that TTFontDescription does but operates directly on the files. Download Dejavu and then (for example) execute:

TTFileDescription installTextStyleFrom: 'DejaVuSans.ttf'.

or if you like Arial better:

TTFileDescription installTextStyleFrom: 'C:\Windows\Fonts\arial.ttf'.

Then choose the font from the font menu (Alt-k). I have been able to use Latin, Cyrillic and Greek text together just fine, see screenshot. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to make CJK scripts work; I'm not sure if these aren't included in the normal fonts I'm using or if something's broke. Yoshiki, can you check this?

To my big surprise TTFileDescription is even relatively fast - it renders a glyph in roughly a millisecond which makes it a perfectly reasonable choice to use instead of TTFontDescription. Remaining issues are the lack of housekeeping (if you move the image or the font, you are hosed), the issue that DisplayScanner still tries to render white spaces (tab, cr, etc all show up as boxes) and more testing.

If you have some "interesting" TTFs, please try them out. I'm interesting in finding fonts that don't work and debug them.

Cheers,

• Andreas

< ArialText .png

...

<TTFileDescription.st>_______________________________________________

etoys-dev mailing list etoys-dev@squeakland.org http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys-dev

Well, "unusual" is a rather kind characterization of it ;)

JIRA is a widely used professional bug tracker, and Immuexa is sponsoring and maintaining this instance for us. Most of us are still not comfortable with it though. I think Milan tried to document a bit of it here:

http://wiki.squeakland.org/display/sq/Development

- Bert -

On 30.07.2009, at 17:17, Andreas Raab wrote:

Hi Bert -

The tracker seems a bit unusual ;-) I have finally found the the "code to test for publication" (for others: click on "browse project" and then for some reason it is listed under "versions") but then I'm lost because I see no way to add a new issue. Help!

Cheers,

• Andreas

Bert Freudenberg wrote:

...

On 30.07.2009, at 09:35, Andreas Raab wrote:

...

Okay, here is a first draft (is there an Etoys repository to commit to?).

We're still defining our processes. For now, upload a changeset to http://tracker.squeakland.org/ and put it into "code to test for publication". Once it gets a positive peer review, one of the committers puts it into the update stream. Current committers are the members of the "software team", see http://squeakland.org/about/people/

...

Not bad for an evening's work if I may say so myself ;-)

Will try later, but sounds good :)

• Bert -

...

TTFileDescription does the same thing that TTFontDescription does but operates directly on the files. Download Dejavu and then (for example) execute:

TTFileDescription installTextStyleFrom: 'DejaVuSans.ttf'.

or if you like Arial better:

TTFileDescription installTextStyleFrom: 'C:\Windows\Fonts \arial.ttf'.

Then choose the font from the font menu (Alt-k). I have been able to use Latin, Cyrillic and Greek text together just fine, see screenshot. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to make CJK scripts work; I'm not sure if these aren't included in the normal fonts I'm using or if something's broke. Yoshiki, can you check this?

To my big surprise TTFileDescription is even relatively fast - it renders a glyph in roughly a millisecond which makes it a perfectly reasonable choice to use instead of TTFontDescription. Remaining issues are the lack of housekeeping (if you move the image or the font, you are hosed), the issue that DisplayScanner still tries to render white spaces (tab, cr, etc all show up as boxes) and more testing.

If you have some "interesting" TTFs, please try them out. I'm interesting in finding fonts that don't work and debug them.

Cheers,

• Andreas

< ArialText .png

...

< TTFileDescription.st>_______________________________________________ etoys-dev mailing list etoys-dev@squeakland.org http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys-dev

---

etoys-dev mailing list etoys-dev@squeakland.org http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys-dev

On July 30, 2009, Andreas Raab wrote:

Bert Freudenberg wrote:

...

Well, "unusual" is a rather kind characterization of it ;)

All issue trackers suck. The thing that gets me with JIRA right now is mostly that it looks unorganized (I dismissed the "Operations" section entirely because it doesn't look like a menu with lots of extra text in it and hidden away in the bottom left) and of course its evil use of applets (thank you, but I do not want to wait 20 seconds for Java to launch and eat half of my precious memory for the rest of the browser session ;-)

Other than that it looks every bit as confusing as Bugzilla, Mantis or Trac. They just all suck.

...

JIRA is a widely used professional bug tracker, and Immuexa is sponsoring and maintaining this instance for us. Most of us are still not comfortable with it though. I think Milan tried to document a bit of it here:

http://wiki.squeakland.org/display/sq/Development

That actually answered my question: "it is not clear how to create a new bug without being logged in". Indeed. There just doesn't seem to be a way.

Thanks Andreas - I updated the page to read:

Note: You must have an account there and be logged in to report a bug. Create an account on Etoys Issue Tracker.

Milan

Cheers,

• Andreas

---

etoys-dev mailing list etoys-dev@squeakland.org http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys-dev

On 30.07.2009, at 09:35, Andreas Raab wrote:

If you have some "interesting" TTFs, please try them out. I'm interesting in finding fonts that don't work and debug them.

I'm trying to remember which font I needed this for, but I encountered one that used vertex-references to define composite glyphs (a case that in the old reader was implemented as "self halt"). These were only in the > 256 char code range so the problem did not manifest before. It might have been dejavu-lgc bold or italic I think.

For this I had to defer the #buildContours call until all glyphs were processed, otherwise the vertex indices were off. Attaching my (possibly outdated) code.

- Bert -

Andreas, It works great (Cyrilic text input and output) ! Tested using Etoys-To-Go on Windows Vista.

Thanks so much, Nikolay

On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 10:31 AM, Andreas Raab andreas.raab@gmx.de wrote:

Hi -

I've integrated Bert's fix as well as support for .ttc collections:

http://tracker.squeakland.org/browse/SQ-283

While working on this I realized how outdated the etoys image is when it comes to TTF support. I was trying to bring in some other necessary fixes but that wouldn't work at all, so I've added a filed out version of TTCFont.st from 3.10.2-trunk which has all the necessary fixes but probably some other issues. With this version things *almost* work:

• Install TTFileDescription.5.cs
• Install TTCFont.st
• Install WhiteSpaceFixes.2.cs

(oh, stupid, stupid JIRA - it does not preserve the ordering in which files were added and you cannot order by date even in "manage attachments" mode; make sure you do *not* load TTFileDescription.st since it's outdated)

• If on Windows, execute:

  TTFileDescription installFamilyNamed: 'Batang'.

(this is a standard font on Windows which has CJK support)

• Change the standard menu font to Batang
• Switch the image to Japanese language

At this point the image blows up somewhere in TextMorph>>authoringPrototype. But if you proceed and open a menu it shows CJK-ish looking characters (not that I could tell if it's correct ;-)

In any case, using the current versions of TTCFont in 3.10.2-trunk I was able to produce the attached image which shows a bit of text from Squeak's wikipedia entry in various languages.

Yoshiki - for some strange reason it seems that some of the glyphs in the Japanese entry are substituded by the default glyph (see the fourth glyph in what I think is the phonetic transcription of Squeak).

Do you have any idea if that is the expected behavior for Batang or if there might be something wrong? It would be good if we could get the text in Squeak to show up correctly, and I'm at a loss here since I have no idea even what code ranges to look at ;-)

Cheers,

• Andreas

---

etoys-dev mailing list etoys-dev@squeakland.org http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys-dev

Yoshiki Ohshima wrote:

Not sure what you meant by a standard font, but Batang is designed for writing Korean. Yes, it is missing some phonetic characters but also some kanjis in the picture is wrong. (here comes our favorite problem.)

Ah, that explains it. Is there a way of telling directly from the font which language(s) they are supposed to support? Or is this trial and error?

For Japanese, MS Mincho, MS UI Gothic, MS P Mincho or MS P Gothic, or on Vista or later Meiryo are the ones to use.

Yup, they look much better. A paragraph from http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squeak rendered in MS UI Gothic attached.

Cheers, - Andreas

Yoshiki Ohshima wrote:

I would think the trial and error, or just look at the font designers document (like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Microsoft_Windows_fonts).

Ah, great resource, thank you!

...

...

For Japanese, MS Mincho, MS UI Gothic, MS P Mincho or MS P Gothic, or on Vista or later Meiryo are the ones to use.

Yup, they look much better. A paragraph from http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squeak rendered in MS UI Gothic attached.

Yes, this looks good!

BTW, one thing I was wondering about is how line breaking is assumed to work with CJK-scripts (or more generally with Unicode). Do you have any information on that? It seems that we're treating all of the CJK characters as non-breakable at this point which leads to odd effects when there are a few spaces included in the text.

Cheers, - Andreas

On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 2:05 PM, Yoshiki Ohshimayoshiki@vpri.org wrote:

At Fri, 31 Jul 2009 09:05:30 -0700, Andreas Raab wrote:

...

Yoshiki Ohshima wrote:

...

Not sure what you meant by a standard font, but Batang is designed for writing Korean.  Yes, it is missing some phonetic characters but also some kanjis in the picture is wrong.  (here comes our favorite problem.)

Ah, that explains it. Is there a way of telling directly from the font which language(s) they are supposed to support? Or is this trial and error?

The font name is in the language. This works for me, since I lived in Korea and Japan, but not for foreigners in general. For example, on Linux, Batang, Dotum, and Baekmuk (바당, 도듬, 백묵) are Korean; Kaiti, Mingti, and Sungti (楷体, 明体,宋体 ) are Chinese; Kochi and Sazanami （こち, 故知; さざなみ, 細波) are Japanese. Educated natives of course recognize their own preferred font styles as readily as Americans can tell typewriter, serif, script, and black letter apart.

I would think the trial and error, or just look at the font designers document (like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Microsoft_Windows_fonts).

It appears that true type fonts on Window has a property called codepage range, but I don't know if you can rely on it in general. (I'm back to a sane Internet environment for now.  I'll investigate a bit more.)

I use the FontMatrix utility to view character repertoires of fonts.

...

...

For Japanese, MS Mincho, MS UI Gothic, MS P Mincho or MS P Gothic, or on Vista or later Meiryo are the ones to use.

Yup, they look much better. A paragraph from http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squeak rendered in MS UI Gothic attached.

Yes, this looks good!

-- Yoshiki _______________________________________________ etoys-dev mailing list etoys-dev@squeakland.org http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys-dev

At Fri, 31 Jul 2009 20:10:56 -0700, Edward Cherlin wrote:

On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 2:05 PM, Yoshiki Ohshimayoshiki@vpri.org wrote:

...

At Fri, 31 Jul 2009 09:05:30 -0700, Andreas Raab wrote:

...

Yoshiki Ohshima wrote:

...

Not sure what you meant by a standard font, but Batang is designed for writing Korean.  Yes, it is missing some phonetic characters but also some kanjis in the picture is wrong.  (here comes our favorite problem.)

Ah, that explains it. Is there a way of telling directly from the font which language(s) they are supposed to support? Or is this trial and error?

The font name is in the language. This works for me, since I lived in Korea and Japan, but not for foreigners in general. For example, on Linux, Batang, Dotum, and Baekmuk (바당, 도듬, 백묵) are Korean; Kaiti, Mingti, and Sungti (楷体, 明体,宋体 ) are Chinese; Kochi and Sazanami （こち, 故知; さざなみ, 細波) are Japanese. Educated natives of course recognize their own preferred font styles as readily as Americans can tell typewriter, serif, script, and black letter apart.

Yeah, but I wouldn't think that "MS UI Gothic" is Japanese^^;

I use the FontMatrix utility to view character repertoires of fonts.

Thanks!

-- Yoshiki

On 03.08.2009, at 10:51, Edward Cherlin wrote:

2009/8/1 Yoshiki Ohshima yoshiki@vpri.org:

...

At Fri, 31 Jul 2009 20:10:56 -0700, Edward Cherlin wrote:

...

On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 2:05 PM, Yoshiki Ohshimayoshiki@vpri.org wrote:

...

At Fri, 31 Jul 2009 09:05:30 -0700, Andreas Raab wrote:

...

...

...

...

Ah, that explains it. Is there a way of telling directly from the font which language(s) they are supposed to support? Or is this trial and error?

The font name is in the language. This works for me, since I lived in Korea and Japan, but not for foreigners in general. For example, on Linux, Batang, Dotum, and Baekmuk ( $(C9Y4g (B, $(C555k (B, $ (C9i9, (B) are Korean; Kaiti, Mingti, and Sungti ( $B\4BN (B, $BL@BN (B, $BAWBN (B ) are Chinese; Kochi and Sazanami $B!J$3$A (B, $B8NCN (B; $B$5$6$J$_ (B, $B:YGH (B) are Japanese.

Do you know why your mail software is not rendering and retransmitting Japanese correctly?

Yoshiki's reply had these chars display fine for me.

But our mail/forums gateway messes up encodings:

http://tracker.squeakland.org/browse/SQ-284

- Bert -

On Mon, Aug 3, 2009 at 2:47 PM, Yoshiki Ohshimayoshiki@vpri.org wrote:

At Mon, 3 Aug 2009 01:51:42 -0700, Edward Cherlin wrote:

...

Do you know why your mail software is not rendering and retransmitting Japanese correctly?

Mine is rendering and retransmitting Japanese mixed with Hangul correctly in ISO-2022-JP-2 (defined in RFC 1554 and supports mixed Japanese and Chinese text nicely).  As Bert wrote, if you are reading it through the forums gateway, that may be the problem.

Can you send to this list in Unicode? A lot of software doesn't support ISO-2022-JP correctly in any form. It is a large and complex standard, almost never implemented in full.

http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1554 "This memo describes a text encoding scheme: "ISO-2022-JP-2", which is used experimentally for electronic mail [RFC822] and network news [RFC1036] messages in several Japanese networks."

How widely is ISO-2022-JP-2 implemented? I have never heard of it before. Certainly Firefox does not support it separately from ISO-2022-JP.

...

Ah, well, Microsoft. Watch out for broken MS Unicode fonts for Japanese and Korean that provide yen sign or weon sign in place of backslash, in accordance with national variants of US-ASCII but not in accordance with Unicode. One of many reasons I gave up on Windows. I have had several arguments about this and related complaints on the Unicode mailing list, with Japanese who claim that Unicode is broken, and that we are a conspiracy of cultural imperialism. In fact we follow Japanese national standards scrupulously where possible, and our experts on Japanese are mainly from Japan.

Well, you talk as if I'm one of them with the conspiracy of cultural imperialism (I'm not).

Not at all. I was quite specific about where the arguments occurred.

But you know that there is discrepancy between Unicode claim and practice.  Like the round-trip conversion guarantee, when the Unicode consortium cannot provide a standard mapping table and the claim is false.

The round-trip conversion guarantee does not include all prior standards. There is a list. You would have to provide specifics (which we could better discuss offline) for me to comment on the details.

And for yen sign and won sign, putting these glyphs there in a seemingly Unicode fonts is bad, yes.

But anyway, the discussion here is whether you can tell the languages supported by a font by looking at its name or not.  And answer is no.

True for Windows. I blame Microsoft.

So let us not diverge too much.

Certainly.

-- Yoshiki

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On 04.08.2009, at 06:25, Yoshiki Ohshima wrote:

"Deja-Vu" is French

Actually, "Déjà vu" would be French ;)

Anyway, do we have a list of fonts we'd like to ship with in Etoys? So far only Deja-Vu-LGC has been suggested.

The requirements would be it has to have a license allowing us to bundle it, and it should add a language/script we could not render otherwise. The reason to include the fonts instead of relying on platform fonts would be to ensure projects behaving identically across platforms.

Looking at the list of translations at

http://translate.sugarlabs.org/projects/etoys/

which of these could we render if we had the right font? Not right-to- left unfortunately, and none requiring qlyph shaping like Devanagari.

- Bert -

On 05.08.2009, at 01:19, Edward Cherlin wrote:

You need to integrate Pango,

We know. On Linux we do. Elsewhere it's a pain to get working, hence the simple home-grown fallback.

and you need an Input Method framework such as SCIM.

We already have that, thanks to the active Japanese community.

- Bert -

On 05.08.2009, at 01:29, Yoshiki Ohshima wrote:

At Tue, 4 Aug 2009 22:16:37 +0200, Bert Freudenberg wrote:

...

Actually, "Déjà vu" would be French ;)

Anyway, do we have a list of fonts we'd like to ship with in Etoys? So far only Deja-Vu-LGC has been suggested.

A Japanese version of Etoys is shipped with Mona-font (which is "free") pre-loaded. Now it could be externalized.

...

The requirements would be it has to have a license allowing us to bundle it, and it should add a language/script we could not render otherwise. The reason to include the fonts instead of relying on platform fonts would be to ensure projects behaving identically across platforms.

Looking at the list of translations at

http://translate.sugarlabs.org/projects/etoys/

Not really tested with whole coverage of Deja-Vu and cannot tell that real text in these language can be rendered, but with rough eyeball checking, if we ship Deja-Vu, Mona, and some free fonts for chinese and Korean I could say:

Coverage less than 1% and could be rendered: Catalan, Icelandish, Bulgarian, Polish, Macedonean, Romanian

Coverage between 1% and 70% and could be rendered: Dutch, Iceland, Italian, Portugese

Coverage more than 70% and could be rendered: Greek, Kreyol, Spanish, Swedish, Turkish (non-latin1 version and latin1 version), German, French, Russian, Simplified Chinese, Traditional Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Mongolian (in Cyrillic)

-- Yoshiki

Okay. So we will have a "fonts" folder in the resources (image) directory. We'll put DejaVu-LGC there, in Sans, Serif, and Mono faces, each with regular, bold, italic, and bold+italic styles. These 12 fonts take 3.8 MB of disk space (which should be more than compensated by removing them from the image). Then Mona, at 2.7 MB. What about Komika, guess we take it out of the image and put it on disk, too? And any idea for Korean and Chinese?

- Bert -

At Fri, 31 Jul 2009 20:10:56 -0700, Edward Cherlin wrote:

Kochi and Sazanami （こち, 故知; さざなみ, 細波) are Japanese.

Kochi is "東風", FYI.

-- Yoshiki

On 31.07.2009, at 08:31, Andreas Raab wrote:

Hi -

I've integrated Bert's fix as well as support for .ttc collections:

http://tracker.squeakland.org/browse/SQ-283

While working on this I realized how outdated the etoys image is when it comes to TTF support. I was trying to bring in some other necessary fixes but that wouldn't work at all, so I've added a filed out version of TTCFont.st from 3.10.2-trunk which has all the necessary fixes but probably some other issues. With this version things *almost* work:

• Install TTFileDescription.5.cs
• Install TTCFont.st
• Install WhiteSpaceFixes.2.cs

I tried on a Mac, first failure in #fontOffsetsInFile:. There are fonts that are tagged 'true' instead of (0 1 0 0):

http://developer.apple.com/textfonts/TTRefMan/RM06/Chap6.html

"The values 'true' (0x74727565) and 0x00010000 are recognized by the Mac OS as referring to TrueType fonts."

That's easy to fix.

Then there are bitmap fonts like "NISC18030.ttf" which cannot be loaded, they fail when looking for the 'head' table.

The list of *ttf on the Mac isn't really long, most fonts are not in truetype format apparently:

('Al Bayan' 'Andale Mono' 'AppleMyungjo' 'Arial' 'Arial Black' 'Arial Hebrew' 'Arial Narrow' 'Arial Rounded MT Bold' 'Arial Unicode MS' 'Ayuthaya' 'Baghdad' 'Brush Script MT' 'Chalkboard' 'Comic Sans MS' 'Corsiva Hebrew' 'Courier New' 'DecoType Naskh' 'Devanagari MT' 'Euphemia UCAS' 'Georgia' 'Gujarati MT' 'Gurmukhi MT' 'Impact' 'InaiMathi' 'Kailasa' 'Kokonor' 'Krungthep' 'KufiStandardGK' 'Microsoft Sans Serif' 'Mshtakan' 'Nadeem' 'New Peninim MT' 'Plantagenet Cherokee' 'Sathu' 'Silom' 'Tahoma' 'Times New Roman' 'Trebuchet MS' 'Verdana' 'Webdings' 'Wingdings' 'Wingdings 2' 'Wingdings 3')

There were 5 more fonts but their names were mangled (IIRC fonts can store their meta data in various languages and encodings).

I tried to install "Tahoma" but got the message that the subfamily "Negreta" (span. "black") is not recognized in #indexOfSubfamilyName:. After fixing that it worked fine.

Attaching a changeset with my fixes (though maybe the bitmap detection should not just rely on errors).

If anyone else is testing on a Mac you might find this helpful (and if you do, review and push, thanks):

http://tracker.squeakland.org/browse/SQ-243

- Bert -

On 01.08.2009, at 07:36, Andreas Raab wrote:

Bert Freudenberg wrote:

...

The list of *ttf on the Mac isn't really long, most fonts are not in truetype format apparently: ('Al Bayan' 'Andale Mono' 'AppleMyungjo' 'Arial' 'Arial Black' 'Arial Hebrew' 'Arial Narrow' 'Arial Rounded MT Bold' 'Arial Unicode MS' 'Ayuthaya' 'Baghdad' 'Brush Script MT' 'Chalkboard' 'Comic Sans MS' 'Corsiva Hebrew' 'Courier New' 'DecoType Naskh' 'Devanagari MT' 'Euphemia UCAS' 'Georgia' 'Gujarati MT' 'Gurmukhi MT' 'Impact' 'InaiMathi' 'Kailasa' 'Kokonor' 'Krungthep' 'KufiStandardGK' 'Microsoft Sans Serif' 'Mshtakan' 'Nadeem' 'New Peninim MT' 'Plantagenet Cherokee' 'Sathu' 'Silom' 'Tahoma' 'Times New Roman' 'Trebuchet MS' 'Verdana' 'Webdings' 'Wingdings' 'Wingdings 2' 'Wingdings 3')

That can't be right. Where are the standard Apple fonts? What format are they in? Are we perhaps looking in the wrong directories?

No, it's the right directory for system-provided fonts (plus /System/ Library/Fonts). But many fonts are in *.dfont format or *.otf (Font Suitcase and OpenType), and quite a lot are stored in resource forks only (appearing as zero size files, see below).

The official list is here:

http://support.apple.com/kb/HT1642

...

There were 5 more fonts but their names were mangled (IIRC fonts can store their meta data in various languages and encodings).

Try "TTFileDescription fontFromUser" - this will show the family names extracted from the fonts instead of the file names.

Doesn't work, we do not have ToolBuilder in the Etoys image. But it simply uses the keys, right? Here they are, the last ones are mangled:

(hmm, the clipboard won't let me copy this. another fix waiting ...)

- Bert -

Faust:~ bert$ ll /Library/Fonts total 579688 -rw-rw-r-- 1 root admin 10629164 Sep 24 2007 #Gungseouche.dfont -rw-rw-r-- 1 root admin 1214592 Sep 24 2007 #HeadlineA.dfont -rw-rw-r-- 1 root admin 9492864 Sep 24 2007 #PCmyoungjo.dfont -rw-rw-r-- 1 root admin 4674324 Sep 24 2007 #Pilgiche.dfont -rw-rw-r--@ 1 root admin 0 Mar 7 2007 Academy Engraved LET Fonts -rw-rw-r-- 1 root admin 82080 Sep 29 2007 AlBayan.ttf -rw-rw-r-- 1 root admin 81852 Sep 29 2007 AlBayanBold.ttf -rw-rw-r-- 1 root admin 1254080 Oct 3 2007 AmericanTypewriter.dfont -rw-rw-r-- 1 root admin 109700 Oct 3 2007 Andale Mono.ttf -rw-rw-r-- 1 root admin 336673 Oct 3 2007 Apple Chancery.dfont -rw-rw-r-- 1 root admin 5801849 Sep 24 2007 Apple LiGothic Medium.dfont -rw-rw-r-- 1 root admin 8882856 Sep 24 2007 Apple LiSung Light.dfont -rw-rw-r-- 1 root admin 57456 Jan 25 2007 AppleCasual.dfont -rw-rw-r-- 1 root admin 17685248 Sep 24 2007 AppleMyungjo.ttf -rw-rw-r--@ 1 root admin 0 Jun 15 2006 Arial -rw-rw-r--@ 1 root admin 0 Aug 19 2006 Arial Black -rw-rw-r-- 1 root admin 122556 Oct 3 2007 Arial Black.ttf -rw-rw-r-- 1 root admin 558672 Oct 3 2007 Arial Bold Italic.ttf -rw-rw-r-- 1 root admin 750984 Oct 3 2007 Arial Bold.ttf -rw-rw-r-- 1 root admin 553284 Oct 3 2007 Arial Italic.ttf -rw-rw-r--@ 1 root admin 0 Aug 19 2006 Arial Narrow -rw-rw-r-- 1 root admin 183932 Oct 3 2007 Arial Narrow Bold Italic.ttf -rw-rw-r-- 1 root admin 184420 Oct 3 2007 Arial Narrow Bold.ttf -rw-rw-r-- 1 root admin 184944 Oct 3 2007 Arial Narrow Italic.ttf -rw-rw-r-- 1 root admin 179492 Oct 3 2007 Arial Narrow.ttf -rw-rw-r--@ 1 root admin 0 Aug 19 2006 Arial Rounded Bold -rw-rw-r-- 1 root admin 49296 Oct 3 2007 Arial Rounded Bold.ttf -rw-rw-r-- 1 root admin 23278008 Oct 3 2007 Arial Unicode.ttf -rw-rw-r-- 1 root admin 773236 Oct 3 2007 Arial.ttf -rw-rw-r-- 1 root admin 36216 Sep 29 2007 ArialHB.ttf -rw-rw-r-- 1 root admin 35548 Sep 29 2007 ArialHBBold.ttf -rw-rw-r-- 1 root admin 297848 Sep 29 2007 Ayuthaya.ttf -rw-rw-r-- 1 root admin 95792 Sep 29 2007 Baghdad.ttf -rw-rw-r--@ 1 root admin 0 Mar 7 2007 Bank Gothic -rw-rw-r-- 1 root admin 416519 Oct 3 2007 Baskerville.dfont -rw-rw-r-- 1 root admin 13910174 Sep 24 2007 BiauKai.dfont -rw-rw-r-- 1 root admin 141083 Oct 3 2007 BigCaslon.dfont -rw-rw-r--@ 1 root admin 0 Mar 7 2007 Blackmoor LET Fonts -rw-rw-r--@ 1 root admin 0 Jun 15 2006 BlairMdITC TT-Medium -rw-rw-r--@ 1 root admin 0 Mar 7 2007 Bodoni Ornaments ITC TT -rw-rw-r--@ 1 root admin 0 Mar 7 2007 Bodoni SvtyTwo ITC TT -rw-rw-r--@ 1 root admin 0 Mar 7 2007 Bodoni SvtyTwo OS ITC TT -rw-rw-r--@ 1 root admin 0 Mar 7 2007 Bodoni SvtyTwo SC ITC TT -rw-rw-r--@ 1 root admin 0 Apr 26 2007 Bordeaux Roman Bold LET Fonts -rw-rw-r--@ 1 root admin 0 Mar 7 2007 Bradley Hand ITC TT- Bold -rw-rw-r--@ 1 root admin 0 Aug 19 2006 Brush Script -rw-rw-r-- 1 root admin 56844 Oct 3 2007 Brush Script.ttf -rw-rw-r-- 1 root admin 75698 Mar 7 2007 Capitals.dfont -rw-rw-r-- 1 root admin 112756 Oct 3 2007 Chalkboard.ttf -rw-rw-r-- 1 root admin 107564 Oct 3 2007 ChalkboardBold.ttf -rw-rw-r-- 1 root admin 68332 Sep 29 2007 CharcoalCY.dfont -rw-rw-r-- 1 root admin 778819 Oct 3 2007 Cochin.dfont -rw-rw-r--@ 1 root admin 0 Aug 19 2006 Comic Sans MS -rw-rw-r-- 1 root admin 120120 Oct 3 2007 Comic Sans MS Bold.ttf -rw-rw-r-- 1 root admin 135484 Oct 3 2007 Comic Sans MS.ttf -rw-rw-r-- 1 root admin 236964 Oct 3 2007 Copperplate.dfont -rw-rw-r-- 1 root admin 40340 Sep 29 2007 Corsiva.ttf -rw-rw-r-- 1 root admin 42096 Sep 29 2007 CorsivaBold.ttf -rw-rw-r--@ 1 root admin 0 Aug 19 2006 Courier New -rw-rw-r-- 1 root admin 506640 Oct 3 2007 Courier New Bold Italic.ttf -rw-rw-r-- 1 root admin 699932 Oct 3 2007 Courier New Bold.ttf -rw-rw-r-- 1 root admin 596624 Oct 3 2007 Courier New Italic.ttf -rw-rw-r-- 1 root admin 692792 Oct 3 2007 Courier New.ttf -rw-rw-r--@ 1 root admin 0 Jun 15 2006 Cracked -rw-rw-r-- 1 root admin 67608 Sep 29 2007 DecoTypeNaskh.ttf -rw-rw-r-- 1 root admin 332348 Sep 29 2007 DevanagariMT.ttf -rw-rw-r-- 1 root admin 315644 Sep 29 2007 DevanagariMTBold.ttf -rw-rw-r-- 1 root admin 345894 Oct 3 2007 Didot.dfont -rw-rw-r-- 1 root admin 175900 Sep 29 2007 EuphemiaCASBold.ttf -rw-rw-r-- 1 root admin 191156 Sep 29 2007 EuphemiaCASItalic.ttf -rw-rw-r-- 1 root admin 212752 Sep 29 2007 EuphemiaCASRegular.ttf -rw-rw-r-- 1 root admin 300270 Oct 3 2007 Futura.dfont -rw-rw-r-- 1 root admin 108128 Sep 29 2007 GenevaCY.dfont -rw-rw-r--@ 1 root admin 0 Aug 19 2006 Georgia -rw-rw-r-- 1 root admin 167476 Oct 3 2007 Georgia Bold Italic.ttf -rw-rw-r-- 1 root admin 148768 Oct 3 2007 Georgia Bold.ttf -rw-rw-r-- 1 root admin 165208 Oct 3 2007 Georgia Italic.ttf -rw-rw-r-- 1 root admin 159656 Oct 3 2007 Georgia.ttf -rw-rw-r-- 1 root admin 568324 Oct 3 2007 GillSans.dfont -rw-rw-r-- 1 root admin 224940 Sep 29 2007 GujaratiMT.ttf -rw-rw-r-- 1 root admin 213708 Sep 29 2007 GujaratiMTBold.ttf -rw-rw-r-- 1 root admin 64572 Sep 29 2007 Gurmukhi.ttf -rw-rw-r--@ 1 root admin 0 Jun 15 2006 Handwriting - Dakota -rw-rw-r-- 1 root admin 7501763 Sep 24 2007 Hei.dfont -rw-rw-r-- 1 root admin 276747 Sep 29 2007 HelveticaCY.dfont -rw-rw-r-- 1 root admin 106279 Oct 3 2007 Herculanum.dfont -rw-rw-r-- 1 root admin 1599007 Oct 3 2007 Hoefler Text.dfont -rw-rw-r-- 1 root admin 138488 Oct 3 2007 Impact.ttf -rw-rw-r-- 1 root admin 228792 Sep 29 2007 InaiMathi.ttf -rw-rw-r--@ 1 root admin 0 Mar 7 2007 Jazz LET Fonts -rw-rw-r-- 1 root admin 7892096 Sep 24 2007 Kai.dfont -rw-rw-r-- 1 root admin 594720 Sep 29 2007 Kailasa.ttf -rw-rw-r-- 1 root admin 1006136 Sep 29 2007 Kokonor.ttf -rw-rw-r-- 1 root admin 183036 Sep 29 2007 Krungthep.ttf -rw-rw-r-- 1 root admin 79292 Sep 29 2007 KufiStandardGK.ttf -rw-rw-r-- 1 root admin 430304 Oct 3 2007 MarkerFelt.dfont -rw-rw-r-- 1 root admin 652248 Oct 3 2007 Microsoft Sans Serif.ttf -rw-rw-r--@ 1 root admin 0 Mar 7 2007 Mona Lisa Solid ITC TT -rw-rw-r-- 1 root admin 37320 Sep 29 2007 MshtakanBold.ttf -rw-rw-r-- 1 root admin 41400 Sep 29 2007 MshtakanBoldOblique.ttf -rw-rw-r-- 1 root admin 51360 Sep 29 2007 MshtakanOblique.ttf -rw-rw-r-- 1 root admin 46172 Sep 29 2007 MshtakanRegular.ttf -rw-rw-r-- 1 root admin 7108232 Sep 24 2007 NISC18030.ttf -rw-rw-r-- 1 root admin 93904 Sep 29 2007 Nadeem.ttf -rw-rw-r-- 1 root admin 43868 Sep 29 2007 NewPeninimMT.ttf -rw-rw-r-- 1 root admin 48116 Sep 29 2007 NewPeninimMTBold.ttf -rw-rw-r-- 1 root admin 50384 Sep 29 2007 NewPeninimMTBoldInclined.ttf -rw-rw-r-- 1 root admin 44520 Sep 29 2007 NewPeninimMTInclined.ttf -rw-rw-r-- 1 root admin 561459 Oct 3 2007 Optima.dfont -rw-rw-r-- 1 root admin 3629894 Sep 24 2007 Osaka.dfont -rw-rw-r-- 1 root admin 2306535 Sep 24 2007 OsakaMono.dfont -rw-rw-r--@ 1 root admin 0 Jun 15 2006 Palatino -rw-rw-r-- 1 root admin 295478 Oct 3 2007 Papyrus.dfont -rw-rw-r--@ 1 root admin 0 Mar 7 2007 Party LET Fonts -rw-rw-r-- 1 root admin 119484 Sep 29 2007 PlantagenetCherokee.ttf -rw-rw-r--@ 1 root admin 0 Jun 15 2006 PortagoITC TT -rw-rw-r--@ 1 root admin 0 Mar 7 2007 Princetown LET Fonts -rw-rw-r-- 1 root admin 32420 Sep 29 2007 Raanana.ttf -rw-rw-r-- 1 root admin 31636 Sep 29 2007 RaananaBold.ttf -rw-rw-r--@ 1 root admin 0 Mar 7 2007 Santa Fe LET Fonts -rw-rw-r-- 1 root admin 396952 Sep 29 2007 Sathu.ttf -rw-rw-r--@ 1 root admin 0 Mar 7 2007 Savoye LET Fonts -rw-rw-r--@ 1 root admin 0 Mar 7 2007 SchoolHouse Cursive B.suit -rw-rw-r--@ 1 root admin 0 Mar 7 2007 SchoolHouse Printed A -rw-rw-r-- 1 root admin 281848 Sep 29 2007 Silom.ttf -rw-rw-r-- 1 root admin 475746 Oct 3 2007 Skia.dfont -rw-rw-r--@ 1 root admin 0 Mar 7 2007 Snell Roundhand -rw-rw-r--@ 1 root admin 0 Mar 7 2007 Stone Sans ITC TT -rw-rw-r--@ 1 root admin 0 Mar 7 2007 Synchro LET Fonts -rw-rw-r-- 1 root admin 626928 Oct 3 2007 Tahoma Bold.ttf -rw-rw-r-- 1 root admin 681120 Oct 3 2007 Tahoma.ttf -rw-rw-r--@ 1 root admin 0 Aug 19 2006 Times New Roman -rw-rw-r-- 1 root admin 620008 Oct 3 2007 Times New Roman Bold Italic.ttf -rw-rw-r-- 1 root admin 842168 Oct 3 2007 Times New Roman Bold.ttf -rw-rw-r-- 1 root admin 660268 Oct 3 2007 Times New Roman Italic.ttf -rw-rw-r-- 1 root admin 834452 Oct 3 2007 Times New Roman.ttf -rw-rw-r--@ 1 root admin 0 Aug 19 2006 Trebuchet MS -rw-rw-r-- 1 root admin 137008 Oct 3 2007 Trebuchet MS Bold Italic.ttf -rw-rw-r-- 1 root admin 129360 Oct 3 2007 Trebuchet MS Bold.ttf -rw-rw-r-- 1 root admin 144820 Oct 3 2007 Trebuchet MS Italic.ttf -rw-rw-r-- 1 root admin 138848 Oct 3 2007 Trebuchet MS.ttf -rw-rw-r--@ 1 root admin 0 Mar 7 2007 Type Embellishmnt One LET -rw-rw-r--@ 1 root admin 0 Aug 19 2006 Verdana -rw-rw-r-- 1 root admin 173132 Oct 3 2007 Verdana Bold Italic.ttf -rw-rw-r-- 1 root admin 153260 Oct 3 2007 Verdana Bold.ttf -rw-rw-r-- 1 root admin 174612 Oct 3 2007 Verdana Italic.ttf -rw-rw-r-- 1 root admin 186188 Oct 3 2007 Verdana.ttf -rw-rw-r--@ 1 root admin 0 Aug 19 2006 Webdings -rw-rw-r-- 1 root admin 124308 Oct 3 2007 Webdings.ttf -rw-rw-r-- 1 root admin 68768 Oct 3 2007 Wingdings 2.ttf -rw-rw-r-- 1 root admin 38308 Oct 3 2007 Wingdings 3.ttf -rw-rw-r-- 1 root admin 86384 Oct 3 2007 Wingdings.ttf -rw-rw-r-- 1 root admin 528824 Oct 3 2007 Zapfino.dfont -rw-rw-r-- 1 root admin 17965572 Sep 24 2007 儷宋 Pro.ttf -rw-rw-r-- 1 root admin 15734520 Sep 24 2007 华文仿宋.ttf -rw-rw-r-- 1 root admin 16163168 Sep 24 2007 华文宋体.ttf -rw-rw-r-- 1 root admin 17502828 Sep 24 2007 华文楷体.ttf -rw-rw-r-- 1 root admin 11585924 Sep 24 2007 ヒラギノ明朝 Pro W3.otf -rw-rw-r-- 1 root admin 11097336 Sep 24 2007 ヒラギノ明朝 Pro W6.otf -rw-rw-r-- 1 root admin 9367476 Sep 24 2007 ヒラギノ角ゴ Pro W3.otf -rw-rw-r-- 1 root admin 10114744 Sep 24 2007 ヒラギノ丸ゴ Pro W4.otf -rw-rw-r-- 1 root admin 8876804 Sep 24 2007 ヒラギノ角ゴ Pro W6.otf -rw-rw-r-- 1 root admin 9260524 Sep 24 2007 ヒラギノ丸ゴ ProN W4.otf -rw-rw-r-- 1 root admin 4281976 Sep 24 2007 ヒラギノ角ゴ Std W8.otf -rw-rw-r-- 1 root admin 3646432 Sep 24 2007 ヒラギノ角ゴ StdN W8.otf

/Library/Fonts/ total 214000 -rw-r--r-- 1 root wheel 263912 Oct 3 2007 Apple Braille Outline 6 Dot.ttf -rw-r--r-- 1 root wheel 280980 Oct 3 2007 Apple Braille Outline 8 Dot.ttf -rw-r--r-- 1 root wheel 183080 Oct 3 2007 Apple Braille Pinpoint 6 Dot.ttf -rw-r--r-- 1 root wheel 189668 Oct 3 2007 Apple Braille Pinpoint 8 Dot.ttf -rw-r--r-- 1 root wheel 135960 Oct 3 2007 Apple Braille.ttf -rw-r--r-- 1 root wheel 1506200 Oct 3 2007 Apple Symbols.ttf -rw-r--r-- 1 root wheel 15394588 Sep 24 2007 AppleGothic.ttf -rw-r--r-- 1 root wheel 67564 Sep 24 2007 AquaKanaBold.otf -rw-r--r-- 1 root wheel 67560 Sep 24 2007 AquaKanaRegular.otf -rw-r--r-- 1 root wheel 1307154 Oct 3 2007 Courier.dfont -rw-r--r-- 1 root wheel 121368 Oct 3 2007 Geeza Pro Bold.ttf -rw-r--r-- 1 root wheel 124328 Oct 3 2007 Geeza Pro.ttf -rw-r--r-- 1 root wheel 486916 Oct 3 2007 Geneva.dfont -rw-r--r--@ 1 root wheel 0 Oct 3 2007 HelveLTMM -rw-r--r--@ 1 root wheel 0 Oct 3 2007 Helvetica LT MM -rw-r--r-- 1 root wheel 2402112 Oct 3 2007 Helvetica.dfont -rw-r--r-- 1 root wheel 1262685 Oct 3 2007 HelveticaNeue.dfont -rw-r--r-- 1 root wheel 20632 Oct 3 2007 Keyboard.dfont -rw-r--r-- 1 root wheel 2562100 Oct 3 2007 LastResort.dfont -rw-r--r-- 1 root wheel 2295501 Oct 3 2007 LucidaGrande.dfont -rw-r--r-- 1 root wheel 531341 Oct 3 2007 Monaco.dfont -rw-r--r-- 1 root wheel 75196 Oct 3 2007 Symbol.dfont -rw-r--r-- 1 root wheel 363516 Sep 29 2007 Thonburi.ttf -rw-r--r-- 1 root wheel 363732 Sep 29 2007 ThonburiBold.ttf -rw-r--r--@ 1 root wheel 0 Oct 3 2007 Times LT MM -rw-r--r-- 1 root wheel 1763409 Oct 3 2007 Times.dfont -rw-r--r--@ 1 root wheel 0 Oct 3 2007 TimesLTMM -rw-r--r-- 1 root wheel 154620 Oct 3 2007 ZapfDingbats.dfont -rw-r--r-- 1 root wheel 10823828 Sep 24 2007 儷黑 Pro.ttf -rw-r--r-- 1 root wheel 18206848 Sep 24 2007 华文细黑.ttf -rw-r--r-- 1 root wheel 13631256 Sep 24 2007 华文黑体.ttf -rw-r--r-- 1 root wheel 9690520 Sep 24 2007 ヒラギノ明朝 ProN W3.otf -rw-r--r-- 1 root wheel 9801964 Sep 24 2007 ヒラギノ明朝 ProN W6.otf -rw-r--r-- 1 root wheel 7467416 Sep 24 2007 ヒラギノ角ゴ ProN W3.otf -rw-r--r-- 1 root wheel 7515064 Sep 24 2007 ヒラギノ角ゴ ProN W6.otf

Andreas Raab wrote:

Bert Freudenberg wrote:

...

No, it's the right directory for system-provided fonts (plus /System/Library/Fonts). But many fonts are in *.dfont format or *.otf (Font Suitcase and OpenType), and quite a lot are stored in resource forks only (appearing as zero size files, see below).

Ah, OpenType. I hadn't found one of those yet. In theory, they are just TTFs with additional headers - can you give that a shot and see if we can actually process them correctly (just add .otf to the list of recognized extensions)? As for dfonts, is there any info on those?

Just found this comment at http://typographica.org/000423.php: ".dfont is new with OSX. In older Mac systems, files were composed of two "forks"--a data fork and a resource fork. The resource fork was generally were code was stored. This is also were font code was stored in fonts. This older type of file structure is still supported in OSX for backward compatibility, but appears to be on the way out. The .dfont format is simply a TrueType font with the resource fork removed and the font code stored in what used to be called the data fork."

I presume that means we just add dfont to the list of extensions? (that's almost too easy ;-)

Can someone try this, too?

Cheers, - Andreas

Bert Freudenberg wrote:

Not quite - the tag is 'OTTO' and there is neither a 'loca' nor 'glyf' table.

Yup. Checked the spec and .otf is used specifically as extension for Open Type fonts with postscript glyphs. If someone wants to look at this you'll have to look at CFF (Compact Font Format) specification. This is a bit out of scope for me right now.

...

...

As for dfonts, is there any info on those?

It is too easy. According to this article, ttf/ttc/otf are "Windows formats" that OS X supports but its native format is dfont:

http://support.apple.com/kb/TA22195

I couldn't find a format spec yet though. But it appears to embed ttfs literally.

Right. I spent some time digging and all I could find on them is that they are "data fork" fonts. I.e., where in the old days fonts stored their contents in the "resource fork" the dfonts store them in the data fork. Unfortunately, there does seem to be absolutely no information about what the header looks like so I'm not going to dig into this right now.

I think as far as deploying Etoys is concerned we are in a reasonable state here - we can pick one or more fonts that are either: * Shipped directly with the download (Deja Vu etc) * Are available on the platform (Windows TTFs for example) * Can be downloaded as an add-on for Etoys from the web page

Cheers, - Andreas

On Thursday 30 Jul 2009 12:40:11 am Edward Cherlin wrote:

Several readily available Free Truetype fonts include Latin and Cyrillic. For example,

Science and Math text need Greek letters. Greek Font Society has many freeware typefaces, along with source code: http://www.greekfontsociety.gr/pages/en_typefacestex.html

Subbu

On Thursday 30 Jul 2009 9:09:08 am Edward Cherlin wrote:

On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 7:09 PM, K. K. Subramaniamsubbukk@gmail.com wrote:

...

Science and Math text need Greek letters. Greek Font Society has many freeware typefaces, along with source code: http://www.greekfontsociety.gr/pages/en_typefacestex.html

Several of the fonts I listed include Greek. Let me know if you want details.

True, but they target office automation (narrative text). The quality is not adequate for Science and Math text (e.g. formulae) encountered in school work.

This is probably off-topic for a discussion about wording in clouds. The specific issues are discussed with examples in:

http://ctan.tug.org/tex-archive/info/Free_Math_Font_Survey/survey.html

Subbu