seaside March 2008

seaside@lists.squeakfoundation.org

76 participants
97 discussions

Re: Guiding the Albatross to the VW-Seaside? [was: [Seaside]Seasidefor VisualWorks]
by Boris Popov 24 Jun '08

24 Jun '08

I would hope so seeing as that's where majority of development is happening right now and cincom focus will first be on better integration and only then on seaside itself if I understand correctly. Cheers! -Boris (Sent from a BlackBerry) ----- Original Message ----- From: seaside-bounces(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org <seaside-bounces(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org> To: Seaside - general discussion <seaside(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org> Sent: Wed Jun 20 22:37:01 2007 Subject: Re: Guiding the Albatross to the VW-Seaside? [was: [Seaside]Seasidefor VisualWorks] So the current development model with development happening in Squeak and versions for other dialects being "generated" from there will stay? Philippe 2007/6/21, Michael Lucas-Smith <mlucas-smith(a)cincom.com>: > Yes, that's very high on the list of laws for this project. We're not > forking Seaside. > > Michael > > Ron Teitelbaum wrote: > > Hi Michael, > > > > I'd like to see Cincom maintain squeak compatibility. > > > > Ron Teitelbaum > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: seaside-bounces(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org [mailto:seaside- > >> bounces(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org] On Behalf Of Michael Lucas-Smith > >> Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2007 5:15 PM > >> To: Seaside - general discussion > >> Subject: Re: Guiding the Albatross to the VW-Seaside? [was: [Seaside] > >> Seasidefor VisualWorks] > >> > >> > >> > >>> Some UI testing tool like Watir (Ruby, see [1][2]) or Albatross (Squeak, > >>> see [3][4])on VW would be nice. > >>> I am aware of the Seaside Testing Tool from David Shaffer[5], but a > >>> framework capable of replaying JS scripts and showing the stuff > >>> > >> happening > >> > >>> in some browser would be nice - both for the test driven developers and > >>> their customers. > >>> > >>> Maybe guiding the Albatross to the VW-Seaside would be an option? > >>> > >>> > >> This is nice. When we did web testing before I moved to Cincom we > >> utilised the known properties of the server side code instead of > >> bouncing back to the web browser itself. Mostly because of: > >> a) Speed of running the tests > >> b) Ease of writing the tests > >> > >> In the end we wanted to do testing like this - so I whole heartedly > >> support this idea. It's going on to the project backlog. Thanks for > >> bringing it to my attention. > >> > >> Cheers, > >> Michael > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Seaside mailing list > >> Seaside(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org > >> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Seaside mailing list > > Seaside(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org > > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside > > > > _______________________________________________ > Seaside mailing list > Seaside(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside > _______________________________________________ Seaside mailing list Seaside(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside

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[ANN] SqueakPeople Certifications
by Germán Arduino 18 Apr '08

18 Apr '08

Hi: Trying to test the newest versions of Squeak (3.10) and Seaside (2.8) I developed a tiny app to group the SqueakPeople by its certifications using the page of SqueakPeople with this data, as data source. The app is running on seasidehosting, at this link: http://squeakpeoplestats.seasidehosting.st/seaside/SqueakPeopleStats Enjoy :) -- Germán S. Arduino http://www.arsol.biz http://www.arsol.net http://germanarduino.blogspot.com

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Another Seasider newbie's experience
by itsme213 03 Apr '08

03 Apr '08

Just thought I would summarize my experience with Seaside (thanks Cedrick). I just started ~4 months ago, I'm relatively new to Seaside and Smalltalk and Web, I have prior experience with objects. I have not tried using Aida. The Seaside community, both on this list and through private emails, has been astonishingly helpful (you know who you are :-) Ramon's blog was a big help, as were some assorted tutorials on the web. I did not make much use of the Pottsdam tutorial. The forthcoming Seaside book should be a huge help (Hurry up, Stef, Lukas,... :-). Beginer docs (like Aida appears to have) were hard to find. The html-in-code was easy with Seaside's Canvas, once I understood how the Brushes intervened. Callbacks were trivial to program, apps with whole-page refresh very simple to do, though the use of #state never quite fit my needs. Dealing with pure Smalltalk objects and callbacks on the server, with Seaside taking care of generating all string keys and mapping back to Smalltalk, a pure joy. It took a while for me to get used to pulling in CSS and JS files into the image, changing CSS in method-body strings, and serving them out via FileLibrary accessors. It was also very frustrating figuring out that FireFox cached all this stuff unless you actually went into about:config and tweaked a parameter to turn it off. Basic components were easy once I understood #children (which Seaside uses for several things like updating URLs and headers). I am curious if Aida requires something like #children, and what trade-offs it makes. Ajax components were not easy, I went through a few depressing rounds of worrying about how much more I still had to understand to be productive. I was pushing Ajax a bit more than Seaside 2.8 was originally architected for. If you have the callback of one component changing and re-rendering the component-tree structure in a distant component, you better know what you are doing (and use Lukas #in:do: solution, see nabble archives). The way 2.8 does callback processing down the component tree in the presence of Ajax, depending on when the last complete #render:aComponent was called, is too complex for an app-programmer to have to understand; #in:do: seems to be a 2.8 fix, and this issue is scheduled to disappear in 2.9. People have different opinions on a generic Seaside component library that fit together within a slightly higher-level UI framework. Personally I think it would be a huge asset, and would be delighted if Seaside (not "core", perhaps a separate package) made some opinionated decisions in this regard. My 2 c, Sophie

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jQuery on Seaside
by Sebastian Sastre 01 Apr '08

01 Apr '08

Hi seasiders, I've started to make use of Seaside's Scriptaculous javascript serialization mechanism to access jQuery library. It's in SqueakSource. There is also a package to use the first plugin I was interested in (www.curvycorners.net). It's kind of raw right now and I plan to add functionalities and plugins there as I need them. I've set the project to read/write so please feel free to contribute because is MIT licensed. Cheers, Sebastian Sastre

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Re: [Seaside] SULibrary and prototypeJs
by Boris Popov 01 Apr '08

01 Apr '08

Did you clear browser cache? Cheers! -Boris (via BlackBerry) ----- Original Message ----- From: seaside-bounces(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org <seaside-bounces(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org> To: seaside(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org <seaside(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org> Sent: Sun Mar 30 17:11:25 2008 Subject: [Seaside] SULibrary and prototypeJs Hi, I am using Seaside2.8. I am running Win Xp. I have made some minor changes to SULibrary>>prototypeJs. I have restarted my browser and restarted my image. When I look at my generated page using Firebug and I look at the prototype.js, I do not see my changes. I thought that when I asked for http://localhost/seaside/files/SULibrary/prototype.js that I would get the contents of SULibraty>>prototypeJs. Why do I not see the changes that I made to SULibrary>>prototypeJs Thanks, Frank _______________________________________________ seaside mailing list seaside(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside

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render methods vs non-render methods in components - convention?
by merlyn＠stonehenge.com 31 Mar '08

31 Mar '08

Briefly, call:/answer: should *not* be used during a render, but only during a callback. Render methods should all take an "html" parameter. Yet a typical WAComponent of mine will have methods of both types. And a WATask will have *no* render methods. I'm wondering if there's a convention for me to know whether I'm in a render method (or something called from that) or not. Do the experienced seasiders follow the convention that all render methods look like: renderFooOn: html But what about the other methods? How would you know if another method is being called from a render method or from a callback, or maybe both? In other words, is there a convention for me to know if I can call: aValue ifNil: [aValue := self request: 'How many times?']. safely in a given method of a component? Should I put all callback support into a separate protocol category? -- Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 <merlyn(a)stonehenge.com> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/> Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training!

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Seaside vs. Traditional
by Rob Rothwell 31 Mar '08

31 Mar '08

Hello... I would like explore a little further the post "Seaside vs. Traditional" at http://www.lukas-renggli.ch/blog? because: 1. I was a sound bite! ("As a new Smalltalker, I couldn't understand Seaside.") Kind of embarrassing, huh?! 2. This post did not fully help me understand the source of my inabilities! Even more embarrassing! The two basic statements I am [mostly] referencing are: 1. I've experienced this many times while giving dozens of tutorials<http://www.lukas-renggli.ch/consulting?_s=DrNTFqJpUuPyqhtg&_k=IWWobIXs&_n&13> on Seaside. There are always some people that have a very hard time to get their head around Seaside, mostly because they think in terms of TRADITIONAL WEB FRAMEWORKS (my emphasis). 2. On the other hand, Seaside is AMAZINGLY SIMPLE (my emphasis) for people without MUCH (my emphasis) prior web development experience. Well, unfortunately, I have NO prior web development experience. And I mean NONE. Look at me, I have copied and pasted from another site and now have indents (likely due to HTML that I don't understand) that I can't even get rid of in the Gmail editor! Anyway, I completely skipped that part of the 21st century, much to my current dismay. I have Assembly Language, FORTRAN, and Visual Basic experience. I am the classic [boring] example of "Why does the world seem inside out in Smalltalk!" Nonetheless, I became enchanted by "a better way," and have stuck with my attempts to learn Smalltalk for nearly four years, most of which has been spent "building images" with each new Squeak release and staring at an "empty browser." I have a degree in Physics, I have been "programming" since I was 11, and I was a U.S. Army Airborne Ranger Medic. Smalltalk has been the first thing in my life that was ever hard for me! So...fun! But...frustrating, because I wanted to get real WORK done with it, and kept going back to obviously "lesser ways" just to get something done. Ok. Enough background. The point I am trying to make is that I tried. I googled. I would meet a couple of guys once a month or so that CAN Smalltalk. Seaside made sense...when they were doing it! Then, I went back to the empty browser. My impression is still that you need to have a certain level of accomplishment in Smalltalk itself before the...elegance...of the framework as at your disposal. This isn't a bad thing, although it does leave me feeling a little incapable, but, hey--the number of objects at your command when you open a Squeak image for the first time are simply overwhelming. And "overwhelmed" would be how I would describe my experience with Seaside to be, because it "looks so easy," so why can't I figure it out? Which, coincidentally, is EXACTLY how I feel watching an experienced Smalltalker do ANYTHING. So, I agree with you. Seaside IS harder for those with a "traditional" background. But I think traditional includes standard static language programming to produce basic client applications for typical operating systems. And from THAT point of view, I feel like I don't understand web programming ENOUGH to even lay things out on the screen where I want them to be, or get images into my application (yes, basic stuff like that). And so then there is Aida as well, which WAS easier coming from a "traditional" (my definition) background. Now, I do not want to be thwarted so easily and will surely continue to try to understand Seaside because I think that will help me continue to understand Smalltalk. But WHY was Aida easier for me? Is it because it is "less powerful?" "More procedural?" Because I CAN lay things out on the screen quite easily "the wrong way" with tables? Is it more "concrete?" These are all "negative" phrases as if I should assume somehow that Seaside has the upper hand in some way I do not understand. I obviously don't have the answers! I didn't even know Aida existed until Janko posted his benchmarks on the Cincom site and because I was struggling with Seaside I gave it a shot. I DO think that after spending some time with Aida, I will be able to understand Seaside better, which is MOST interesting, because somewhere in that thought lies the gap between my own process capability (my ability to simply use Smalltalk) and the capability demanded by the system (Seaside, Aida, or any set of classes for that matter), which is the classic gap inherent in any system implementation. Anyway, if I can figure this out better, I may be able to help others succeed where I have struggled, because I am obviously missing something. In the meantime, keep up the good work! I am intrigued by the "meta" abilities of your solutions with both Seaside and Magritte and their apparent ability to act as an elegantly abstract layer for Content--which could be useful in appropriately complex situations. Unfortunately, I don't think I'm ready yet. Maybe someday...when I grow up, and can handle that level of abstraction! I hope this doesn't sound like the beginning of another "Us vs. Them" post. I've had enough of that with LPGL vs. MIT! I just want to understand...what I don't understand! Anyone going to the Smalltalk Solutions conference? I am trying to position myself to go...maybe in the shear presence of mastery I can pick up on some of the stuff I am missing! Rob

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lightbox2 and seaside
by Squeaker 31 Mar '08

31 Mar '08

Greetings, I have been using the lightbox in Seaside and it works well. I just came across lightbox2 http://www.lokeshdhakar.com/projects/lightbox2/ It looks really cool and I would like use lightbox2. Has anyone done this already? Any advice about the wisdom of going down this road? Thanks, Frank

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Seaside List Appology
by Ron Teitelbaum 31 Mar '08

31 Mar '08

Hi All, I've been working way too hard, but that is no excuse for my rather harsh tone, and feelings at the time. I consider Philippe to be a very important part of our community which I believe includes everyone not just people from Squeak. I love reading posts from James Patterson, Dan Ingalls, John Maloney, Andreas Raab, Eliot Miranda and Dale Henrichs. Just because people are making money from Cincom, Sun, MIT, Qwaq, Cadence, Gemstone, or even Swazoo for that matter doesn't make them any less a part of our community. For those of you I didn't list you are included too, there are way too many great people in our community to list them all, and I'm proud to be a part of it. So in that line, I'm sorry. Philippe is tops in my book and I really appreciate your work and the work of the Seaside community. I think the Weekly Squeak helps to show my commitment to all of you and I appreciate your support in return. Philippe if you would rather not have posts of the summaries I will support that out of respect to you and your position in the community. It's really up to you. Thanks, Ron Teitelbaum Squeak News Team Member

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SULibrary and prototypeJs
by Squeaker 31 Mar '08

31 Mar '08

Hi, I am using Seaside2.8. I am running Win Xp. I have made some minor changes to SULibrary>>prototypeJs. I have restarted my browser and restarted my image. When I look at my generated page using Firebug and I look at the prototype.js, I do not see my changes. I thought that when I asked for http://localhost/seaside/files/SULibrary/prototype.js that I would get the contents of SULibraty>>prototypeJs. Why do I not see the changes that I made to SULibrary>>prototypeJs Thanks, Frank

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seaside March 2008