seaside June 2005

seaside@lists.squeakfoundation.org

60 participants
76 discussions

Re: [Seaside] liveAction using existing method
by Avi Bryant 30 Jun '05

30 Jun '05

On 6/30/05, William Harford <will(a)harford.org> wrote: > > What I'm currently recommending is that people commit .mcz versions to > > http://squeaksource.com/Seaside - it's world-writable. > > Wow! I am floored. Well, just because it's in the repository doesn't mean anyone will use it ;). But it does let me easily see what's been submitted, because Monticello will highlight any versions that are as yet unmerged. Emails with changesets are too easy to lose. > I committed the changes. Thanks. Avi

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odds and ends
by Avi Bryant 30 Jun '05

30 Jun '05

Just a few assorted Seaside-related things that have been on my mind (I guess if there was a Seaside blog, these would be postings there...). - It seems like the recently announced "sitemaps" support from Google would be a good basis for a second-generation tool like Cees' "Janus" package. For those that don't know it: Janus is an attempt to make Seaside apps more friendly for search engines. It relies on detecting the user-agent of a search engine's crawler, and then presenting a modified view of the site (which is technically an "illegal" SEO technique that could get you blacklisted, but anyway). This modified view is completely flattened: it presents a single index page with a link to every URL that you want to have as a static entry point into the site; behind each of these URLs is a specially rendered version of the page that has all of the content intact but all of the links disabled, so that the crawler doesn't follow them. This allows the search engine to present results that are deep links into the site (eg, to the tric.nl wiki, which is the only Janus deployment I know about), without having the crawler ever fully enter a Seaside session. Sitemaps would allow essentially the same technique but in a more officially sanctioned way. Simply present a sitemap that serves the same role as the Janus index page, listing all of the static entry points (these have to be registered or derived somehow in an app-specific way). Then have each of these served with a nofollow meta tag so that none of their further, dynamic links get crawled. Almost exactly the same effect, with much less special casing. - I've earlier mentioned the Prototype javascript library as something we might look at supporting. Script.aculo.us is a recently announced superset of Prototype that's even more compelling; particularly nice is its support for drag and drop (allowing you to replicate, say, the drag-and-drop reordering of todo items in Backpack, or the slick shopping cart of the Panic.com store). I've committed a very brief start at a package to wrap this for easy Seaside use to the SqueakSource repository, but there's lots more to be done there if someone wants to pick it up. - Does anyone actually use, or understand, the full generality of the configuration framework from 2.5? I was recently using a 2.3 app and remembered how relatively simple and friendly the config pages for apps were. What would people think about a re-simplification, keeping some aspects of the 2.5 config (like the ability to define SystemConfigurations, with default values, in code, and add these to deployed app instances), but removing some of the more baroque parts (like the inheritance structure for configurations, and the idea of "site defaults" as an extra layer between the code defaults and the individual apps)? - Mostly, when fixes have come in, I've been integrating them with the 2.6a branch but not backporting them to 2.5. How important is it to do that backporting, and is there anyone that wants to take it on? In general, I feel like I could use some help with release management tasks like bug tracking and integration. Ok, that's it for now. Cheers, Avi

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Re: Seaside Apps Web Hosting
by Adnan Zaman 30 Jun '05

30 Jun '05

I really appreciate all the feedback/tips. For now, I have started to explore the renting a vServer idea. But my search has not turned too many results. If you happen to know of any sites that offer the renting option for vServers then please share them here. Thanks alot, Adnan >On 6/25/05, Marco Paga <marco.paga at gmail.com> >wrote: > Hi Adnan, > > AFAIK you won't find any company selling seaside hosting packages. You > can rent a vServer or a dedicated with your favourite OS on it to > serve your Seaside apps. > You need some kind of access to a gui with something like VNC to work > on the image a bit as needed. ____________________________________________________ Yahoo! Sports Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com

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RE: [Seaside] odds and ends
by Ramon Leon 30 Jun '05

30 Jun '05

> > > > Having seaside support this style of development will be a huge win. > > Yes. It is, however, a question worth asking if Seaside is > the right basis for this kind of client/server app: for > example, Seaside goes to a lot of effort to support > page-based concepts like the back button that may not exist > (for better or for worse) in a GMail-style app, or if they do > are probably implemented with client-side JS hacks. Is there > some totally different design that would make more sense in > this world? > > Avi There a nice balance that can be struck between Ajax style and page based style. Gmail is the extreme, not the norm, most apps are more than just one fancy page. Page based stuff is great for navigation where the screen changes and you're moving around the app, but Ajax is nicer than a postback to the same page. Ajax is better for saving a form without posting back, or pre-validating data as you type it, or searchable pick lists when a simple drop down isn't enough. Seaside is just the framework for this.

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RE: [Seaside] odds and ends
by Blanchard, Todd 30 Jun '05

30 Jun '05

Ah, back button support. We've had a huge discussion around that recently. Basically, partial page updates don't involve the back button. If you back off of a "rich" page, then you are leaving the app. OTOH, hitting forwards needs to take you back to the app just as you left it. The trick to this seems to be to make certain that the entire state of the app is represented in hidden form fields. The browser will restore form fields when rolling backwards and forwards. We also put a lot of effort into bookmark-ability and this is a nut we are still trying to crack as the state data doesn't generally fit within a 2k url. -----Original Message----- From: seaside-bounces(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org [mailto:seaside-bounces@lists.squeakfoundation.org] On Behalf Of Avi Bryant Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2005 4:03 PM To: The Squeak Enterprise Aubergines Server - general discussion. Subject: Re: [Seaside] odds and ends On 6/30/05, Blanchard, Todd <tobl(a)amazon.com> wrote: > It is very desireable and a number of large web-oriented companies are investing heavily in richer interfaces. Pages are going to give way to client/server style applications using partial updates to create UI elements. Page oriented apps are going to begin to look sluggish and 'quaint'. > > Having seaside support this style of development will be a huge win. Yes. It is, however, a question worth asking if Seaside is the right basis for this kind of client/server app: for example, Seaside goes to a lot of effort to support page-based concepts like the back button that may not exist (for better or for worse) in a GMail-style app, or if they do are probably implemented with client-side JS hacks. Is there some totally different design that would make more sense in this world? Avi _______________________________________________ Seaside mailing list Seaside(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/listinfo/seaside

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RE: [Seaside] odds and ends
by Blanchard, Todd 30 Jun '05

30 Jun '05

Incidentally, it seems MS has jumped aboard the bandwagon. http://news.com.com/Microsoft+gets+hip+to+AJAX/2100-1007_3-5765197.html?tag…

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RE: [Seaside] odds and ends
by Blanchard, Todd 30 Jun '05

30 Jun '05

Rado writes: What's the answer to "Why do we want to use javascript for that?" ? Sure, you can make your web app look more like a desktop app. But is that desirable? I certainly don't want people to come to *expect* e.g. drag&drop on webpages. ------- It is very desireable and a number of large web-oriented companies are investing heavily in richer interfaces. Pages are going to give way to client/server style applications using partial updates to create UI elements. Page oriented apps are going to begin to look sluggish and 'quaint'. Having seaside support this style of development will be a huge win. _______________________________________________ Seaside mailing list Seaside(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/listinfo/seaside

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Comment Tag in Head Tag
by Jan Angermair 29 Jun '05

29 Jun '05

I having a bit of trouble trying to write a semi valid html tag into the head tag of the document. The reason for this is to introduce a 'Conditional comment' to deal with an IE bug. For reference see http://www.quirksmode.org/css/condcom.html The exact html that I'd need in the header looks like:  As you can see the open and end tag do not behave like standard html. Is there a method to write just a string anywhere into the document? I have been playing with updateRoot and addHeadElement but no luck so far. Thank you, Jan

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RE: [Seaside] How to [ ] ensure: [ ] and call:
by Bany, Michel 28 Jun '05

28 Jun '05

> Yes, I believe the same thing would happen in Squeak. The > problem is that interactions between continuations and > #ensure: are essentially (and, I'd say, necessarily) undefined. I was fearing it could have been another bug in the VW port. Thanks for the detailed explanation. Michel.

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enumerate all currently active sessions
by Chris Schreiner 28 Jun '05

28 Jun '05

One small thing; does seaside have a mechanism to allow me to enumerate all currently active sessions? CPS

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seaside June 2005