squeakland April 2010

squeakland@lists.squeakfoundation.org

12 participants
22 discussions

Need help to have project published
by Carlos Rabassa 23 Apr '10

23 Apr '10

Since last February I have been trying to publish this project: Aprendo I Learn 006 B (2010-abr-05 20:00 EDT) por Carlos Rabassa <carlos> Animation with Wooden Dummy Still doesn´t show in the showcase. Never received any notice about anything wrong with it. Children are being invited to a contest of animation projects and would like to share this example of animation to encourage them. Thanks for any help or suggestions.

2 2

Etoys and Scratch Contest
by Carlos Rabassa 23 Apr '10

23 Apr '10

I translate an announcement from: http://www.ceibal.edu.uy "DARE" contest "Efecto Cine" and "Plan Ceibal" are getting together to organize the first national contest of XO animated short movies. The winning entries will be incorporated to the annual festival organized by "Efecto Cine". The intention of the contest is to promote the use of the XO computers distributed by "Plan Ceibal", as a tool to develop the creativity and imagination of Uruguay's children. This to be achieved creating animated projects with Etoys and Scratch. Dare to create! For bases, guides and inscription form, click on "Read More" For the competition bases, clic here ¿Need help with scratch? clic here The form to enter your personal information when submitting projects, will be available soon.

1 0

stepping down from squeakland
by Timothy Falconer 22 Apr '10

22 Apr '10

Hi everyone, After much soul searching, I've decided to step down as director of Squeakland Foundation. Since the earthquake in Haiti, my time has largely been spent on our Waveplace education pilots there, which have been very successful and are growing fast. Last night I decided that I need to stay focused on Haiti and our other Waveplace work, that I no longer have time for the additional responsibilities of Squeakland. I leave you in the very capable hands of Rita Freudenberg and whomever the new board decides. I still love Etoys, and will continue to teach it and promote it, though this will now be through Waveplace, not Squeakland. What has been called the "Squeakland Courseware" will now become the "Waveplace Courseware". Same stuff, different website. I will continue to fundraise for courseware development, this will be through Waveplace now. All materials will remain freely distributable. Immuexa, my software company, will continue to host and support the Squeakland website and showcase for free. Squeakland will now be our client, as Viewpoints was before. My very best to the many people I have meet in the last fifteen months. Thank you for your passion, your time, your talent. What a gift to work with such incredible people! Take care, Tim -- Timothy Falconer Squeakland Foundation http://squeakland.org 610-797-3100 -- "Intelligence is what you use when you don't know what to do." ... piaget

1 0

education meeting agenda for today
by Rita Freudenberg 22 Apr '10

22 Apr '10

We have on the agenda for the education meeting today, 12:30 EDT. * GSoC news * Haiti pilot and lessons * National Summit on Citizen Diplomacy (mail from Kathleen) * Waveplace courseware proposal If you have more topics, please let me know. Greetings, Rita

1 0

business meet today at 3pm ET (19:00 GMT)
by Timothy Falconer 21 Apr '10

21 Apr '10

Hi everyone, The Squeakland business team will meet today at 3pm ET (19:00 GMT) via Skype. http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?month=4&day=21&year=20… Topics will include: * the Squeakland Courseware proposal and budget * fundraising opportunities * revisiting the 2010 budget prepared last fall * preparing for next week's board meeting on Tuesday at 3pm ET (19:00 GMT) We will also briefly discuss the Waveplace Haiti proposal, as it pertains to the Squeakland Courseware proposal. If you are not currently on the business team, but would like to attend, let me know and give me your Skype account name. Meeting notes will be posted after the meeting. Take care, Tim -- Timothy Falconer Squeakland Foundation http://squeakland.org 610-797-3100 -- "Intelligence is what you use when you don't know what to do." ... piaget

1 0

Waveplace at the epicenter in Haiti
by Timothy Falconer 16 Apr '10

16 Apr '10

(from a recent Waveplace blog post by Beth Santos ... Joseph is one of our Haitian mentors) Yesterday I sat down with Joseph's brother, Abela, who works with Haiti Partners. We were sitting under his little tin roof lean-to, looking at the remains of his home- a beautiful two-story building that is now a couple of tiles and lots of space. He praised the [Waveplace] program and seemed so pleased that it was going well here in Leogane. I told him that there are a number of people in the USA that believe that laptops are not the answer right now, especially in areas like Leogane that are most affected by the earthquake. He and Joseph looked at me like I was crazy. “Are you kidding??” he asked. “Food, water, sure, we need that. But EDUCATION- that's what we really need right now! Without it, how will we be able to build our own?” Joseph added the fact that the kids in Leogane need something to focus on, more than anything. So many children have PTSD and they just need to look forward. They feel helpless and they need to make use of themselves, and take their minds off of what happened to them and their families. Abela sat for a moment. We told him how grateful we were for his hospitality and he fell silent. When he spoke, he told us about how, after the earthquake, everyone went to stay in camps but he couldn't do it. He would come home everyday, early in the morning, and sit outside his house and just be quiet. He says his post-traumatic stress is terrible. We think of the children who are still staying in tents, and we think about how our education program is helping their minds to not only escape, but to grow. These children finally feel that they are worth something. And in Leogane, the program is more valuable than anything. (for more, read here: http://waveplace.org/news/blog ... photos and more video coming soon) -- Timothy Falconer Waveplace Foundation http://waveplace.org + 1 610 624 3760

1 0

New Great Etoys Tutorials ! !
by Carlos Rabassa 16 Apr '10

16 Apr '10

I would like to strongly recommend: http://waveplace.org/resources/tutorials/ This is a completely new set of tutorials by Tim Falconer. They were completed last month prior to his departure to Haiti where they were field tested in several pilot projects, some still running. Nenny and I used the original tutorials to take our first steps in Etoys. Several good friends of ours learned Etoys through the original tutorials which we all recommended to others. Last year in Porto Alegre we had the opportunity of talking at the same time to both Tim and Lino Bessonart, a volunteer in Uruguay who created spanish tutorials in Uruguay which were very helpful in getting us started. Lino said he is also like us, a graduate of Tim's tutorials. Those tutorials were excellent and helped a many of us in far away places. But these new ones, I can assure you are far better! I'm anxious to get them translated into Spanish, they will be a great tool since they include material and tips on how to get the most out of them. We can see them as great tools for learning and for teaching. Teachers, parents, volunteers and children will take great advantage of these tutorials. They have been translated to Creole. I'm ready to start translating to Spanish as soon as I get the authorization. Carlos Rabassa Montevideo, Uruguay

1 0

Back from Haiti
by Timothy Falconer 15 Apr '10

15 Apr '10

Hello everyone, I'm back from Haiti, both literally and figuratively. Since the earthquake, nearly all of my time has been spent on the seven Etoys pilots that have started or will soon start in four different regions of Haiti. To follow our progress, read the Waveplace blog and see the two videos at http://waveplace.org/news/. We'll be adding a great many photos in the next few days. Connectivity was very bad, so we are only uploading photos now. While it may appear that Haiti has benefitted at the expense of Squeakland so far this year, I think quite the opposite is true. The earthquake crisis has drawn Etoys into the center of a conversation that is now happening between many interested groups. I've basically spent the last three months talking, talking, talking. Throughout, I have positioned Squeakland as a source of educational materials. I've depicted Etoys as a learning platform that is very appropriate for a country that has no money for school buildings or materials. In short, I have been laying the groundwork for our fundraising efforts to finish the Squeakland courseware and to improve Etoys itself and its translations. Along the way, we have also created and tested a brand new set of Basic Etoys lessons, which can be found here: http://waveplace.com/resources/tutorials/ We have lesson plans, handouts, and sample projects for each of these lessons, both in English and Haitian Creole. Randy Caton has created a mathematics unit that we will use this month in Haiti. We are also creating a Storytelling unit. We will soon have a complete set of the Basic Etoys screencasts in Haitian Creole as well. Please take the 90 minutes needed to watch these videos and let me know what you think. We will soon begin creating Spanish (and probably Portuguese) versions, so any feedback will have an immediate impact. The Squeakland education team is currently deciding whether to include these lessons in the official Squeakland courseware, so positive comments will also help. Send your comments to squeakland-at-squeakland.org. As for the business team, software team, and board, we will start regular meetings again starting today: * software team: Mondays at 3pm ET (19:00 GMT) on #etoys on the freenode.net network (or chat.squeakland.org) * business team: Wednesdays at 3pm ET (19:00 GMT) by Skype ... send me a private email if you wish to join the team * board meeting: as soon as we can schedule it As always, the minutes or transcripts from all of these meetings will be available on our wiki or chat logs. If you'd like to volunteer to help any of the teams, please let us know, either by responding here, or clicking "contact" on squeakland.org. Thanks everyone. My humblest apologies for being unavailable over the last three months, but now that I am on the other side of the mountain, I can say with certainty that Squeakland will benefit from this unexpected detour. Take care, Tim -- Timothy Falconer Squeakland Foundation http://squeakland.org 610-797-3100 -- "Intelligence is what you use when you don't know what to do." ... piaget

2 3

Etoys Class Reflections
by Steve Thomas 14 Apr '10

14 Apr '10

Taught a class today, 4 kids (8, 10, 11, 12, 14) and 2 adults (Mom and Dad of two of the kids). First class with this group. Started with "Daemon Castle" and then had them do "Etoys Challenge". *Observation*:I had one child. Nick, who was laughing hysterically. I went over and found him playing around making the car go tight circles, bounce off walls and he eventually figured out how to make it bounce off the walls until it reached the goal. His father who sitting next to him, got a bit upset and told him he needed to focus on what he was learning and be more disciplined. *Thoughts*: This reminded me of something another coach told me while coaching Soccer "Never coach your own kid, (a) they won't listen to you and (b) they will listen better to another adult". While I don't fully believe (a), I think they do listen, they just don't want to act like they do, especially in front of the friends, he made a good point. Also, in my observations parents are harder on their own kids then they are on others, especially with their first child. I love to see kids laugh and having a good time in class, this means they are having fun and to me fun means MOTIVATION. I firmly believe motivation trumps most other things, as kids will work hard when motivated. That said the father had a good point and I needed to find a way to turn that "silly fun" into what others have termed "hard fun". So I let him finish his "Etoys Challenge" then when he told me he was done I stepped back and ran his scripts on each step. I then challenge him to reach the goals using just one script. I have observed a number of kids who use multiple versions of the script changing it along the way until they reach the goal. Again I let them do this and congratulate them on a creative way of solving the problem and pointing out there are many ways to solve the problem, but can they find a simpler more elegant way using only one script which doesn't change? I always try to have one part of the class where I get them AWAY from the computers and preferably outside. Today I broke them into pairs and have them "program" each other. One child, the programmer, would give instructions to another child "the computer". I first had them try and program each other to "walk a square". At some point one of the kids will say "turn" and the other knowing he is supposed to walk a square will dutifully turn 90 degrees. I then jump in and ask the child to program me. When I am told to turn I will turn some random value (usually either a very small turn or a 360 degree turn) and they will get the idea and then ask me to turn 90 degrees. One kid got excited and came up with the idea of I can go forward 10 steps, turn 90 degrees and repeat forever. After complimenting him (kids love compliments) I asked him what was like repeat forever in Etoys? He said a ticking script. At some point I made the connection, wish I could remember what brought it up, to how the cells in our bodies are like millions of little ticking scripts doing their own things responding to stimulus and working together to make us and how it is amazing that is. IMPORTANT TEACHING NOTE: I try to never give a child an answer. Instead I will either ask them a question or give them another problem that will help them figure out the answer themselves. Basically a hint in problem or question form. *What to do with kids who finish early?* There are always those who finish faster than others I have a couple of strategies to deal with this: 1. *Have some problems or other Etoys Challenges they can work on For this lesson I had "Etoys Game Challenge" which the kids like because they can create their own games, very motivating for kids.* 2. *Teach them to teach *This means having them help other kids, but the danger here is they will simply show the other kids the answers they found. I do my best to impress upon the kids that they should never give them the answer, but instead help the other child find the answer themselves by asking questions or getting them to think about how their program works (aka play computer). I try to model this and point it out explicitly a bunch of times early in the lesson so the kids understand my preferred style before I ask them to help teach. I then monitor the kids closely when they first start "teaching" other kids. 3. *Have the child teach an adult in the class* The kids get a big kick out of teaching adults.When there are adults this is especially fun, the kids get a big ego boost (and motivation from feeling they are better that an adult at something) out of teaching an adult, and it shows them the adults don't know everything (a valuable lesson in life that kids figure out faster than most adults would like to believe). The adults are usually good sports, but read your people some peoples ego's are fragile and you need to be sensitive to that. 4. *Have them improve or extend their current work* For example their script may not be the simplest or most elegant (ex: turn 90, turn -45; one kid had turn 45, turn -45) or having a forward 10 tile in the YES and NO of a test Some kids will instantly see what they can do with Etoys and start creating games or other fun stuff. If I see this and they have completed the main task (sometimes even if they haven't) I will encourage them to improve their games or show them some basic Etoys functionality that they can use to improve their game or do what they want. At the end of class I wanted to set them up for their homework (working on the 40 Mathematical Shapes challenge) and had them try and get their car's to "Draw a Square" (Hmmmm, another idea to get them out of the computer and use the knowledge they already have is to have them "program" their hands to draw a square on a piece of paper). While doing this one child asked: "What's this symbol here do?" He was pointing at the "add a variable" icon in the top bar of the viewer (looks like a arrow head in a pink background pointing down). At the time we had a script on the screen to draw a circle (forward:5, turn:5) when I had a brainstorm. Okay we can use variables to change the value for forward and turn (I am slow I can't believe it has taken me this long and a 14 year old kid to finally figure this out!!!). So I showed him how to add the two variables and dragged the variables into the scripting tiles to replace the 5's and then asked him to make a square without changing his script. When he looked confused (a feeling I recognize because of my vast experience with this emotion) I pointed out, a couple of times, that the car would move forward and turn by the variables we had setup. *I did NOT point this out by saying it explicitly*. Instead I simply pointed to the variable (i had dragged a detailed watcher onto the screen for each variable) and then pointed to the forward tile and asked him how far it would move forward. He eventually got the idea and I went to work with another child who had been asking questions. Then all of a sudden I heard and excited voice saying "Hey I made an Octagon!!!" I then made a big deal out of his great discovery and pointed out how with one script he could make multiple shapes just by changing the variables. Then i asked him what other shapes he could make and left him to have fun. Towards the end of class I sent them outside again to program themselves (as opposed to others in this case) to follow a road. I drew a sample road and then gave each of the kids some chalk and observed. Each child drew a different shape and I asked them what there program was for following the road. Fortunately one of the dad's who was there said the scripts we wrote reminded him of a robot they have at work do deliver mail. I told the kids some folks have been paid a lot of money to write programs just like the ones they wrote today to follow the road (when my son heard this he asked for $100K). The kids got the idea of programming a car that could drive itself, so I challenged them to program the "Car of the Future" and asked them to think about what kinds of challenges they would have and how they would handle them (other cars, pedestrians, traffic lights). One of the parent's suggested they test their program by having multiple cars drive in Etoys world at the same time. Anyway a lot of fun was had by all and I had to kick the kids out as they wouldn't stop working on Etoys when the class was done. (a good sign and one I always see when kids are first exposed to Etoys). Mr. Steve Note for future reflection: On teaching kids to think about multiple ways to solve a problem and learning how to compare solutions.

1 0

software meeting April 5 - meeting notes
by Rita Freudenberg 05 Apr '10

05 Apr '10

Here are the meeting notes from the software meeting today, April 5. You can also find them on the wiki: http://wiki.squeakland.org/display/sq/2010/04/05/software+meeting+April%2C+5 Greetings, Rita ------------------------------------------------- [21:15] ritaf:so let's start the meeting [21:16] ritaf:who is here? [21:16]randy2: Randy is here [21:16]richo2:Richo [21:16]MrSteve:Stephen [21:16]bertf:me [21:16]ritaf:rita [21:16]jecel:Present [21:16]scottwal:scott [21:17]ritaf:welcome everyone [21:17] ritaf:and welcome richo! [21:17]richo2:thanks for inviting me here [21:18]ritaf:I don't know if you all know that Richo is working on the GSoC-Squeakland education project [21:19]randy2:Richo is doing an amazing job [21:19]ritaf:and as far as I know, he is doing great and looking for more work [21:19] ritaf:so I thought it would be a good idea to get some suggestions from our developers [21:20]randy2:should I put up our proposal so far? [21:20]bertf:sure [21:21]randy2:1. Etoys paint tool The painting tool is one of the most used features of Etoys. The current implementation would be improved in order to support features like zoom, multiple undo, and a select tool, among others. 2. Graphing of Data Tiles for creating vertical and horizontal grid lines, major and minor tick marks, labels for axes, and a label for the graph would be created to allow students to graph data they acquire in science and mathematics project [21:22]bertf:sounds like nice-to-have features indeed [21:23]randy2:Richo has already done most of item 2! [21:24]ritaf:that's great! [21:24]jecel:Since Dr. Geo is going to be integrated into the next version of Etoys, I wonder if it includes any of these features? [21:24]DanGJavaGeek:has anyone @ MIT done user testing with the target audience on the paint tool for scratch? I would think there would be similar or related feedback given the target... [21:25]ritaf:this is a good question, I will find out! [21:25]jecel:The paint tool isn't as critical for Scratch since they love to use clip art [21:25]bertf:jecel: i don't thibk dr geo icludes any of this [21:26]jecel:bertf: thanks! I only saw a movie or two and don't remember much about it [21:26]MrSteve:On item 2, it would be nice to have tools that facilitate kids learning about data collection, analysis and reporting [21:27]randy2:Stephen - could you givbe an example of such a tool? [21:27]MrSteve:The graphing helps with the analysis and reporting, one thing that would be nice is to have ... [21:27] MrSteve:Methods to allow kids to create, publish to and analyze data from their own databases, public, class or project DBs. [21:28]randy2:That goes along with item 3 also [21:29]MrSteve:Sorry, what's item 3? [21:29]randy2:Or do you want a database tool in etoys [21:29] randy2:1. Etoys paint tool The painting tool is one of the most used features of Etoys. The current implementation would be improved in order to support features like zoom, multiple undo, and a select tool, among others. 2. Graphing of Data Tiles for creating vertical and horizontal grid lines, major and minor tick marks, labels for axes, and a label for the graph would be created to allow students to graph data they acquire in science and mathematics project [21:29] randy2:Sorry - I tried to copy just item 3 and failed [21:31]bertf:we do't see a 3rd item [21:32]MrSteve:Richo, as you will soon find out I have a lot of ideas and opinions (not all good so before I do a brain dump, what interests you and what would you like to do? [21:32]richo2:well, databases aren't my favorites [21:32]randy2:3. Input/Output of Data From/To Files Tiles would be created to allow data from the Etoys environment to be output to a file and for information from an external file to be imported into the Etoys environment. [21:33]jecel:There is a third item at http://gsoc2010.esug.org/projects/squeakland-education [21:33]richo2:the proposal at gsoc2010.esug.org is not up to date [21:33]MrSteve:"If I knew where I was going to die, I would never go there" [21:33]randy2:I haven't updated the project at ESUG yet so it doesn't agree with what I just posted [21:33]jecel:Yeah, it doesn't mention the paint app [21:34]MrSteve:Richo, very wise, knowing what you don't like is important [21:34]randy2:I want to update the project after our meeting and I get more feedback from Richo [21:35]DanGJavaGeek:are there particular use cases for #3 data import/ export? [21:35]richo2:steve: you just proposed one of the few things I dislike the most [21:35]randy2:to keep a record of student results [21:36] randy2:to import data to analyze [21:37]ritaf:I would like to know if anyone has thought about adding these things to Etoys before? [21:37]randy2:To answer Dan in more detail: This would allow learners to import data for visualization in the Etoys environment. Etoys is richer than most learning environments used in education and very creative things could be done in Etoys to visualize and use external data from a file. Learners and Teachers would also benefit from getting formative feedback on how the learner is progressing. Etoys is a rich environment of objects and data regarding the learners m [21:37] ohshima hat den Chatroom betreten. [21:38]ritaf:hi yoshiki [21:39]ohshima:Just trying an IRC client on my phone. pls send me the log afterwards. [21:39]jecel:Etoys is a bit weak in dealing with table-style data [21:40]DanGJavaGeek:thanks, I was wondering if there were examples people wanted to try like data in CSV, graphs, charts, the squeakers movie example with dropping objects, I guess one could import data there rather than record individual distances per video frame [21:40]bertf:ritaf: an improved painting tool sounds obviously useful. graphing is possible already - but could be made easier of course, if it fits with the resto of Etoys. Dealing with files is unprecedented. [21:42]randy2:Scott wrote code for me awhile back to write to and get from text files. Thanks Scott. [21:43] randy2:I though it could be made into tiles. [21:43]bertf:the way Scratch handles files is - it doesn't really. it has a "list type" which is interactive first and foremost. but it can export to a text file, and import one - each line becomes a list item [21:44] bertf:randy2: does it need to be a tile? or is impoting a text into a holder sufficient? Line by line like Scratch? [21:44]DanGJavaGeek:right - no requirement that one become the other but I was trying to put into context where students using the environment would want and use file I/O, I think randy had reasonable examples [21:45]jecel:About tables, has anybody used the Skeleton spreadsheet? How well does it work and how well does it integrated with the rest of Etoys? [21:45]bertf:jecel: no idea, but I was wondering too [21:45]randy2:Bert - any way that a novice can use without having to write Smalltalk code. [21:45]richo2:I played with Skeleton and it's great [21:45]bertf:randy2: sure. it could be a halo-menu item [21:46]richo2:but I used the old smallland version of Etoys [21:46]bertf:richo2: is it scriptable from Etoys? [21:47]jecel:richo2: that is nice to know. I am just trying to figure out what will be done with the data once it is imported [21:47]richo2:you can either write functions as smalltalk code or connect etoys tiles with cells [21:47] richo2:so if the value of the cell changes the value of the etoy tile changes as well [21:48] richo2:it's very simple [21:48] ohshima hat den Chatroom verlassen. (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) [21:49]bertf:well, might be worth investigating. Randy - if that allowed exportign and importing data such a spreadsheat might be ideal, no? [21:49]randy2:Bert - yes [21:50]jecel:The other alternative I see is Kedama - your CSV (comma separated values) data becomes the patches in a world [21:53]bertf:yes, but that's rather hard to understand I'd think [21:54]richo2:I was thinking of something like an Etoys Stream object [21:54]bertf:richo2: pelase explain [21:54] bertf:please [21:54]jecel:Yes, you are limited to SIMD (single instruction multiple data) which is far less flexible than a spreadsheet [21:54]richo2:so you would have a slot with the current word [21:55] richo2:and commands to read the next one or write to a file [21:55]DanGJavaGeek:that's interesting, so it's not necessarily limited to file I/O, but could be a stream of items... temperatures, stock prices, etc., maybe from some network service or a file [21:55]bertf:richo2: that sounds a lot like programming. very abstract. the power of etoys is to be concrete. [21:55]richo2:bertf: yes [21:56]jecel:Streams are great and I know you are interested in robots [21:56]richo2:I did something like that a lot of time ago to access the serial port from etoys [21:56]DanGJavaGeek:agreed, "power of etoys is to be concrete" and trying to explain network i/o to k-12 students isn't a fun time [21:57]richo2:but it was, as bert said, very programming oriented [21:57]bertf:maybe something like a sensor ... instead of physical data it would read data from a file [21:57]DanGJavaGeek:without something concrete and fun to play with, that is [21:57]jecel:The reason I was talking about tables instead was that analysing data for inclusion in reports was mentioned [21:58]randy2:Bert - you had suggested fixing up etoys code and Richo sounded interested if it were a well-defined portion. Do you have a small chunk to suggest for him to work on? Richo are you still interested or do you have enough already? [21:59]richo2:I'm very interested in getting etoys working on top of trunk [21:59]DanGJavaGeek:on the sensor end, things like http://info.scratch.mit.edu/Sensor_Boards and Lego WeDo i/o has been interesting for various classrooms that can afford either, but requiring hardware above and beyond an XO or a computer lab is limiting [21:59]bertf:richo2: do you have experience with Monticello? [22:00]richo2:I know only the basic stuff [22:00] richo2:I only use it to get the code out of the image [22:00] richo2:in a way that I can upload to squeaksource [22:01]bertf:for bringing Etoys closer to the Squeak Trunk, we need to reorganize the Etoys image. karl started with this [22:01] bertf:it's a big project [22:01]richo2:yes, I know... that's why I asked for a well defined task [22:01] MrSteve hat den Chatroom verlassen. (Quit: CGI:IRC (Ping timeout)) [22:01]richo2:I don't feel capable of doing it by myself [22:01]bertf:it's not well-bounded [22:02] bertf:another pressing need is better translation support. that is better defined [22:03] bertf:we need to split up the one big Etoys.po into smaller parts [22:03] bertf:e.g., put all tile-translations into one file [22:03]randy2:What about just fixing some of the languages that don't work - like Hatian Creole? [22:04]bertf:randy2: creole is trivial [22:04] bertf:i sent Tim a fix before he went to haiti [22:05]randy2:okay [22:05]bertf:it just was not listed as a Latin1 language [22:05]richo2:yes, that is better defined. And I think I can do that, but I would need to investigate a little. I don't know how translation works [22:05]bertf:richo2: we should ask korakurider [22:06] bertf:he did most of the translation framework [22:06] bertf:and I'm sure he has ideas for how to split it up [22:06] bertf:we also need wider font support [22:06] bertf:there is a changeset in the tracker that is untested [22:07]richo2:what about Juan Vuletich's font stuff? [22:07]bertf:richo2: that's latin only [22:07] bertf:we can't effort bitmap fonts for all foreign scripts [22:07]richo2:oh, I didn't know [22:07]bertf:Cuis does not even have i18n support IIRC [22:08] bertf:or m17n rather [22:08] bertf:anyway, we cant't load all fonts into the image, it just gets too big [22:08] bertf:so andreas made a changeset that loads truetype fonts on demand [22:08] bertf:it's on mantis somewhere [22:09] bertf:that would be good to have. [22:09]richo2:if there is code waiting to be tested I feel much more comfortable than writing it from scratch [22:10]bertf:on the XO under Linux we use Pango for non-latin languages. but it is still really immature. lots of layout problems [22:10] bertf:OTOH Pango can even render Arabic and Devanagari etc., really complicated scripts [22:11] bertf:tracker is down again [22:12] bertf:richo2: yes there is code already. we would need to decide which fonts to include (we do not want to use the host's fonts) [22:13]richo2:why? [22:13]bertf:because projects need to look identical across platforms [22:14] bertf:that's the promise of etoys, bit-identical everywhere [22:14]richo2:ok [22:14] MrSteve hat den Chatroom betreten. [22:15]bertf:I can't use a Mac font in a project that needs to work on Linux as well [22:15]richo2:that's the reason Etoys has all those weird fonts? [22:15]bertf:yep [22:16] bertf:we need to ship the fonts to use [22:16] bertf:if we put them on file instead of the image we can potentially include more/nicer ones [22:17] bertf:provided we can find some license-compatible ones [22:17]jecel:If you use Self on a Sun machine, then save the image and restart it on a Mac it will be very obvious what a stupid idea it is to use platform fonts [22:19]richo2:ok, so we need to test andreas code and choose a good set of fonts to include [22:20]bertf:right. I;d start with one font that has good glyph coverage. DejavuLGC for example [22:20]richo2:I'm sure andreas code will work fine, he doesn't seem to make a lot of mistakes [22:20]bertf:oh he does, he is just quick at fixing the bugs too [22:21] bertf:and since this code is largely untested we don't know the bugs yet [22:21]richo2:ok, I can do that... do you know where can I find his code? [22:22] richo2:I'm looking in mantis but it is kinda messy [22:22]bertf:http://tracker.squeakland.org/ [22:22]richo2:oh [22:22]bertf:if its up look for "fonts" [22:22]richo2:yep, it's down [22:22]bertf:has been unreliable for a while [22:22]richo2:yes, that's a pity [22:23] MrSteve hat den Chatroom verlassen. (Quit: CGI:IRC (EOF)) [22:23] MrSteve2 hat den Chatroom betreten. [22:23]richo2:we should update the project proposal with this new ideas I think [22:23]ritaf:we can talk about the tracker on the next meeting ... [22:23]richo2:also, randy didn't finish to show what we already have [22:24]ritaf:I will send the log files, so you can use it to update the proposal [22:24]richo2:ok [22:24]randy2:Richo - I would like you to update the proposal and add and delete what you want. [22:24]richo2:oh, I have a question [22:24]randy2:Richo - did you get my invitation to join the project? [22:25]richo2:randy2: yes, I have to write the proposal [22:25] richo2:that's easy because I have a template [22:25] richo2:what I don't know is what should I write to apply to google [22:25] richo2:also I don't know how the voting works [22:26] richo2:maybe this is not the best place to ask [22:26]randy2:Richo - just answer the questions Google asks on the FAC and include the updated proposal. [22:27]ritaf:as far as I know, the mentors will vote. But I also remember something about asking the community before. [22:28]randy2:Richo - the voting will be done the week after April 9 and I need to promote your project. I believe ESUG mentors vote at Google for ESUG projects. [22:28]richo2:ok, that seems reasonable [22:29]randy2:I have registered and Google as a mentor. The process seems very complex as new info comes out each day. [22:30]richo2:yes, it's a mess [22:30]randy2:ESUG is doing a great job. [22:30]richo2:their website is a lot more informative than googles [22:31]randy2:Rita - do the log files come by email? [22:32]ritaf:I was planning to post it on squeakland, and to put it on the wiki. [22:32]randy2:And do you send us the link? [22:33] randy2:Or do we just go to the wiki? [22:34]ritaf:I will send the link [22:35]randy2:Rita - do you have a few minutes to Skype after the meeting is over? [22:35]ritaf:yes, I do. [22:35] ritaf:so I think we can finish the meeting for today? [22:36]randy2:Richo - do you have any more questions? [22:36]richo2:no, I'm fine [22:36] richo2:I'll try to add these new items to the project proposal [22:37] richo2:and I'll send it back to you [22:37]randy2:I'm good. Should we quit? Do we just leave the chat? [22:37]ritaf:thank you all for the meeting! [22:37] ritaf:randy2: yes, you can just leave [22:37]bertf:thanks all. randy2: yes, jsut close the browser window [22:37]randy2:Thank you [22:38] randy2 hat den Chatroom verlassen. (Quit: CGI:IRC) [22:38]richo2:bye! [22:38]ritaf:bye [22:39] richo2 hat den Chatroom verlassen. (Quit: CGI:IRC (EOF)) Rita Freudenberg rita(a)isg.cs.uni-magdeburg.de

1 0

2024

2023

2022

2021

2020

2019

2018

2017

2016

2015

2014

2013

2012

2011

2010

2009

2008

2007

2006

2005

2004

2003

squeakland April 2010