squeakland August 2007

squeakland@lists.squeakfoundation.org

27 participants
31 discussions

DrGeo as a part bins
by Hilaire Fernandes 10 Sep '07

10 Sep '07

Hello, I have redesigned the Dr. GeoII[1] user interface to make it looks like a Morph component. It is more in the Squeak Morph constructivist philosophy approach (see screenshot). Now you can create an interactive geometry canvas (a PasteUpMorph exactly) from the PartBins ([Alt]+O). From the halo menu or the canvas menu you access two submenus, one to select a construction tool, the other one to get buttons you can plug any where you want. These changes mean you can take a DrGeo canvas and plug it in a BookMorph page, then take some construction buttons you want the kids to use and plug them in the page book as well. Well the usual stuff you expect with Squeak. Sorry the menu are still only in French, but you know that English and French vocabulary are very close, don't you? Fetch the latest source from http://www.squeaksource.com/DrGeoII.html. It should work with 3.8, 3.9 and SqueakLand. It will be great if someone could produce a screencast. Really designing stuff with Squeak is of great pleasure! Hilaire [1] Dr. GeoII is an interactive geometry tool for Squeak

3 6

rubberbanded sibling problem
by Randy Heiland 04 Sep '07

04 Sep '07

I painted objects A then B (different objects). I then used the shift-click rubberband feature to select them both and then created a sibling of those selected objects. Script A1 just did a 'turn by' on A. Script A2 did a 'tell all siblings to do A1'. The latter didn't work. It did work on an explicitly created sibling of obj A. -Randy

3 5

saving projects (OLPC)
by Randy Heiland 04 Sep '07

04 Sep '07

Using the OLPC etoys, when I save my project to 'Publish to different server' (by holding down the Keep Project icon for an extended time), does it save it to both my local hard disk AND some Squeak server, or just my local disk? -Randy p.s. THANKS for all those math functions in the 'palette of useful tiles'! nitpick: it would be nice to really be able to create a variable named 'x' (as opposed to having it renamed to 'x1')

4 6

Re: [Squeakland] [Etoys] some comments
by Alan Kay 30 Aug '07

30 Aug '07

Hi Bill -- What follows is not an argument against (a) using a game making approach (great for some kids) or (b) the worth of getting all children to learn to program (probably a good idea). What we need to contemplate is the probability of "gaining enlightenment" by being in contact with various kinds of environments and epistemologies. If we look at the class of "those who know how to program" we see a generally unenlightened group (maybe similar to humans in general, maybe even less enlightened). In any case, we have to conclude there is nothing intrinsic about learning to program that leads to deeper thoughts. One of our rueful jokes about the Logo vogue in the 80s is that everything would be OK if we could just package Seymour on the floppies! I think it would be even easier to justify the same generalization about gamers and game makers. Or about archers ... There was an intriguing book in the 60s zeitgeist called "Zen and the Art of Archery" by Herrigel, that made a similiar point: learning archery doesn't confer any automatic enlightenment, but it could be used as a path if much were added to standard training. Or about any activity that requires concentration, focus and learning. My grandfather Clifton Johnson (a writer and illustrator of many books and also an early photographer) once got asked in 1904 to write an article for the Saturday Evening Post on whether photography could be an art form. He said "Art enters in when one labors thoughtfully over a goal; that is, when one cuts loose from actions that are merely mechanical". It's in that space of "laboring thoughtfully" where there are opportunities for enlightenment. "Enlightenment about what?" brings up the environmental influences. I don't think that archery or cooking (or photography) are cosmically interesting -- so the kinds of enlightenments in these environments are likely to be personal ones, but with some flashes of "the world is not as it seems". On the other hand, if science is the environment, and one is dealing with its huge epistemological differences with commonsense perceptions -- that is: science has much of cosmic significance in its purview -- then there are great and deep opportunities for enlightenment. (But no guarantees here either, just higher probabilities.) My interest in education is not as a form of vocational training or preparation, but in helping children to become adults who are more thoughtful, and whose perspectives for thinking are much wider and deeper than the adults of today. The built-in "universals" that are destructive to human growth can be countered to a considerable extent by a modern "real education" that includes powerful invented points of view (the "powerful ideas") that act almost as additional brain/minds and can form a much stronger and less brittle heuristic base for thinking well under wider conditions. In the end, the epistemology of science can lead to many more and better perspectives on the human condition, and this is where I think education should and must go. Whether children learn computers or not is not the issue for me (nor even whether they gain math or science knowledge) -- it's whether they can gain clearer perspectives on "us and what to do about us" that is critical here. The established Arts -- including writing -- have as one of their main properties to provide other perspectives and wake-up calls, but they have been less effective than one would hope: they are generally too easily overwhelmed by distracting media, and they have enough story elements that they tend to be compartmentalized (as is the natural case with stories). On the other hand, even though our brain/minds want to make stories out of everything (and judge them by how apt they seem), science stubbornly tries to rise above our "storyminds" to help us make representations of the "what's out there" that are much more accurate "maps and models" (especially including accurate maps and models of ourselves). This is what we need to concentrate on when trying to design new educational experiences. I don't think we are doing very well at these grand goals for education at the moment, but we haven't forgotten them in all the technical flurries that accompany the invention of new media to hold new ways to look at important ideas. Cheers, Alan At 10:21 PM 8/29/2007, Bill Kerr wrote: >hi paulo, > >Thank you for the link to squeakcmi, it looks >great, I'll spend some time there > >I'm a secondary teacher and in the past few >years I've mainly been using GameMaker - but now >think Squeak / Etoys is potentially more >powerful for a variety of reasons which I have >articulated a little but it needs improvement > >The Game Making approach is flavour of the month >and is good for motivation and engagement of >many students (not all). Also many teachers are >engaged by the concept. I received hundreds of >emails from teachers in just one state of >Australia when I initially promoted Game Maker a >few years ago. However, it is also true that >many teachers oppose Game Maker because they >don't see a clear link to curriculum, some see it as pandering to populism. > >Both you and alan have mentioned this outlook, >to quote from alan in this thread: "a >productively environment (Scratch is aimed at >productivity) and an educational one (EToys is more aimed in this direction)" > >I sort of agree with this approach but am also >torn. Game Maker is unashamedly populist, the >focus is absolutely clear from its name. So kids >end up programming on an inferior platform - no >morphic, no late binding, Windows only, >proprietary code. It would be nice if more young >people spontaneously picked up on etoys / >squeak, that it could generate that sort of >appeal. The way kids view school these days to >promote something as "educational" is almost the kiss of death!! > >I would see Etoys / Squeak as more powerful than >either Scratch or Game Maker. I wouldn't see >young students moving over from Etoys to Scratch >as a step upwards, it seems more like a step backwards to me. > >I like the low entry, high ceiling approach. You >don't need the high ceiling for all students but >in any group a small proportion of hackers >emerges, say 5%, which does need the high >ceiling. One aim ought to be to encourage that >advanced group, one thing they do is drag the general level upwards > >For the students I teach (secondary) the quality >of their sprites is very important. I have seen >them abandon their game making projects simply >because they couldn't find the sprites they wanted on the web. > >I'm still a beginner with etoys / squeak but >have done more study recently and now understand >how the morphic approach fits in to etoys (the >Player class, prototyping approach). > >What I'm saying is that it would be good to have >multiple pathways into etoys, not always >starting with a painting, which is a v strong >default at the moment. This would probably mean >the ability from the start to select a variety >of morphs from a supplies or widgets tab, which >is a feature of eg. my squeak 3.8 full image but >not a feature of the OLPC/etoys image. You only >get the paint option. I can't find the world >menu to access morphs in that way at all in the >etoys image so I'm wondering about the design >decisions that have been made in this case and the rationale behind them. > >I think what you and alan will say is that the >target group for the OLPC is ages 6 to 12, one >of the core_principles: ><http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Core_principles>http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Core_principles > >Fair enough but I think for this group my >comments still do have some relevance, so I'll send to the list as well > >cheers, >- Bill >-- >Bill Kerr ><http://billkerr2.blogspot.com/>http://billkerr2.blogspot.com/ > > >On 8/27/07, Paulo Drummond ><<mailto:ptdrumm@terra.com.br> ptdrumm(a)terra.com.br> wrote: > >On Aug 26, 2007, at 10:07 PM, Bill Kerr wrote: > >>On 8/25/07, carla gomez monroy >><<mailto:carla@laptop.org> carla(a)laptop.org> wrote: >> >>However, for some people it can be quite >>intimidating to get a blank screen when they click on "Make A New Project." >> >> >>I'm wondering why the first step is always to >>make a painting - and then when you keep the >>painting you have an object and can then do >>more powerful things at that point. > >Imho, the first step is to understand a little >of this environment and what was the idea behind >Etoys. Depending on the age/grade, the deepness >varies. However, the teacher has a crucial role >here: to understand it first. The book "Powerful >Ideas in the Classroom" is of enormous value. > >The next expected step for a child (in this >environment) is to create an object. Children >usually like to pictorially represent their >world. They need to express it as they need to >situate themselves in the surrounding society. Contextualize. > >They can also use other predefined objects like >ellipses/circles, rectangles/squares etc to >complement their painting, or give a more >"realistic" display of their object-symbols. >Conversely, they may use the paint palete to >"personalize" some geometrical primitives they've place in their world. > >It has been demonstrated >(<http://www.squeakcmi.org>http://www.squeakcmi.org) >that kids at initial grades can use Etoys as a >starting point to understand it and to express >their ideas, paving the way to more advanced >representations using the very same environment. > >>A naive user might think it is just a paint >>program. Also some people don't like painting >>or are not good at it, eg. me. Also it's hard to paint well with a mouse. > >Children can use Etoys as a mapping tool. >Actually they don't give a penny about accuracy, >just because they don't need to. Adults >generally do, even not knowing a bit of its usefulness. > >>Why not have prepackaged sprites which can be >>loaded immediately (as well as the painting >>option)? Then the user is one step closer to >>the more powerful stuff. It also sends a >>message that it is not just a paint program - >>there has to be more to it than just loading a sprite >> >>LogoWriter, MicroWorlds and GameMaker all have prepackaged sprites > >Then Squeak Etoys would be another thing. When >not-so-young kids need a more sophisticated >expression-driven, more in the realm of >productivity authoring tools with many of the >programmatic aspects of Etoys, they may go to another great tool: Scratch. > >>I have given to the teachers in printed form >> * powerful ideas in the classroom >> >> >>I think *all* of the book, Powerful ideas in >>the classroom, should be available on the web. >>The car tutorial on squeakland is great but >>it's not enough. There are some good pdfs on >>squeakland too but the site is poorly organised > >Afaik, a new squeakland website is in the works. > >>and it took me ages to find them. I wrote a >>blog about the frustrating but eventually >>successful search for etoy resources here: >><http://billkerr2.blogspot.com/2007/04/frustrating-but-eventually-successful…>http://billkerr2.blogspot.com/2007/04/frustrating-but-eventually-successful… >> >> >>It would be good to have a comprehensive help >>manual in one place. Pop up help is good but >>sometimes more detail is needed. Such a manual >>would probably be used more by teachers than by >>students but that is still useful. > >I could not agree more. Etoys documentation is >really very scarce and sparse. With the help of >the Squeakland community worldwide, these things >are starting to show up here and there. It has >been posted in <http://laptop.org>laptop.org's >[Community-news] that the Etoys dev team has >started a discussion about this issue. > > paulo > > > >_______________________________________________ >Etoys mailing list >Etoys(a)lists.laptop.org >http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/etoys

1 0

classic vs. OLPC version
by Randy Heiland 28 Aug '07

28 Aug '07

Which version of etoys is considered the "official" version - the "classic" version that I've downloaded & used for such a long time from Squeakland or the OLPC version that is available from the squeakfest '07 site? I ask, in part, because I may be starting another series of workshops and would like to know which UI the kids should begin to get familiar with. Thanks, Randy

4 3

OLPC squeak on OSX
by Randy Heiland 28 Aug '07

28 Aug '07

Hi folks, I am thinking of you all at Squeakfest this week and thought I'd try to install/play with the OLPC-Etoys that was advertised on the Squeakfest site. Downloading that .zip file and unzipping it, I followed the terse README and dragged 'etoys.image' onto 'Squeakland.app', but nothing happened, i.e. Etoys didn't pop up. Still being a somewhat newbie in OSX, could someone offer up some clues? Previously, I had downloaded etoys from squeakland and that ran fine on my Mac. Fwiw, I'm running OSX 10.4.10 and have: ~/dev/Education/OLPC$ ll total 89264 drwxr-xr-x 25 heiland heiland 850 Aug 3 12:42 ExampleEtoys/ -rw-r--r-- 1 heiland heiland 76288 Jan 21 2006 KedamaPlugin2.dll -rw-r--r-- 1 heiland heiland 24631486 Aug 3 12:33 OLPC- Etoys070726.zip -rw-r--r-- 1 heiland heiland 340 Jul 26 11:12 README -rw-r--r-- 1 heiland heiland 1077760 Sep 23 2004 Squeak.exe -rw-r--r-- 1 heiland heiland 211 Jul 26 11:36 Squeak.ini drwxr-xr-x 3 heiland heiland 102 Aug 3 12:42 Squeakland.app/ -rw-r--r-- 1 heiland heiland 19899484 Jul 26 11:37 etoys.image ~/dev/Education/OLPC/Squeakland.app/Contents/MacOS$ ll total 5136 -rw-r--r-- 1 heiland heiland 2624364 May 16 11:00 Squeak VM Opt -rw-r--r-- 1 heiland heiland 66 May 16 11:01 Squeak VM Opt.sig thanks, Randy

3 6

size of palette in OLPC version
by Randy Heiland 28 Aug '07

28 Aug '07

Is the "reduced" size of the painting palette in the OLPC etoys, i.e. it takes up only a portion of the OLPC window, the expected size? Or does it have to do with my OS, or display resolution (didn't seem to), or something else? It seems unusually constraining. If you need a visual, I uploaded a window capture to: http://www.flickr.com/photos/heiland/sets/72157601674199558/ thanks, Randy

2 2

Re: [Squeakland] [Etoys] some comments
by Kim Rose 27 Aug '07

27 Aug '07

Hi, Bill - We are planning to revamp the Squeakland.org website...it's a matter of resources....we agree it is difficult to find what one is seeking the way the site is currently organized. cheers, Kim >On 8/25/07, carla gomez monroy ><<mailto:carla@laptop.org>carla(a)laptop.org> wrote: > > >However, for some people it can be quite intimidating to get a blank >screen when they click on "Make A New Project." > > >I'm wondering why the first step is always to make a painting - and >then when you keep the painting you have an object and can then do >more powerful things at that point > >A naive user might think it is just a paint program. Also some >people don't like painting or are not good at it, eg. me. Also it's >hard to paint well with a mouse. > >Why not have prepackaged sprites which can be loaded immediately (as >well as the painting option)? Then the user is one step closer to >the more powerful stuff. It also sends a message that it is not just >a paint program - there has to be more to it than just loading a >sprite > >LogoWriter, MicroWorlds and GameMaker all have prepackaged sprites > >I have given to the teachers in printed form > * powerful ideas in the classroom > > >I think *all* of the book, Powerful ideas in the classroom, should >be available on the web. The car tutorial on squeakland is great but >it's not enough. There are some good pdfs on squeakland too but the >site is poorly organised and it took me ages to find them. I wrote a >blog about the frustrating but eventually successful search for etoy >resources here: ><http://billkerr2.blogspot.com/2007/04/frustrating-but-eventually-successful…>http://billkerr2.blogspot.com/2007/04/frustrating-but-eventually-successful… > >It would be good to have a comprehensive help manual in one place. >Pop up help is good but sometimes more detail is needed. Such a >manual would probably be used more by teachers than by students but >that is still useful. >-- >Bill Kerr ><http://billkerr2.blogspot.com/>http://billkerr2.blogspot.com/ > > > >_______________________________________________ >Etoys mailing list >Etoys(a)lists.laptop.org >http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/etoys

1 0

Re: [Squeakland] the non universals
by David Corking 26 Aug '07

26 Aug '07

Thanks for wrestling with my questioning, Alan (btw - it seems we forgot to share our last two exchanges with the mailing list - my fault - I refrained from repeating your responses extensively here in case it not your intent to post them.) On 8/16/07, Alan Kay wrote: > Of course, this is far from a scientific survey .... You clearly know far more teachers than I do. I am shocked to hear that so few US math and science teachers were math and science majors, or were even educated in any college level math and science. I suspect it is normal worldwide to postpone calculus until the equivalent of "Advanced Placement" courses in years 11 and 12 - I hope it is mandatory to know calculus before going to college for math, science or engineering (and perhaps for social science too.) Perhaps by the delay we then rob many kids the chance to (1) see its beauty and (2) see that it underpins so much of modern science and engineering. As you point out, the algebraic model of calculus is not interesting to many people, but the difference model would, I imagine, be useful to every aspiring mechanic, lab technician or customer service supervisor. > But what if the > secondary math teachers complained loudly? I don't think they are in > any decision process that I can find. I don't know the US systems very well. I would like to think that school boards and education departments consult professionals first. Are there countries where that does happen? David

9 18

Re: [Squeakland] the non universals
by Blake 24 Aug '07

24 Aug '07

On Thu, 23 Aug 2007 22:33:37 -0700, <mmille10(a)comcast.net> wrote: > No, they didn't use the term "office suite" back then. I was relating > the curriculum to what it would be called now. We did learn about how to > use a word processor, spreadsheet, and database application, though. > Yes, they were separate applications. May be I didn't make that clearin > what I wrote. I remember we used AppleWriter (I think), and VisiCalc,and > some database app. whose name I can't remember, all on Apple II's. Well, let me apologize if I sounded overly picky. There was a very short window (historically speaking) for when "office suite" might have meant anything other than "Microsoft Office". It's depressing to hear that (at least in your experience) the needle went from oddball geek hobby to mundane replacement for typewriter, ledger and filing system. To their current state: Monopoly perpetuators. I'm maybe 2 years older than you and my experience was at two different extremes: I went to a private school which was ahead of the curve as far as computers go (having a PDP-11 and several Apple ][s for all those who were interested, which was not many), and then to a public school which had never seen a computer--put still, net percentage, the difference between the two in terms of population that knew or cared about computers was probably about the same. But you know, it doesn't seem to matter much what subject it is, I've seen the same thing in all of them: if the student is interested, nothing will stop him; if not, nothing will help. Some of this is a matter of native interest: We are not all interested in the same things, and no matter how delightfully presented, the subject will remain at best a mild curiosity. Too much of it is a matter of interest destroyed: A student attacks a subject vigorously but is crushed in some manner or another, say with the sort of ritualistic kind of "teaching" Alan describes, where there is no understanding, and these days where the rituals have been replaced with a shadow of something that "builds self-esteem" while even denigrating understanding. And of course the usual brutal traditions of bad teachers. There are few techniques to rehabilitate blunted interest and fewer people who know how to apply them.

2 2

2024

2023

2022

2021

2020

2019

2018

2017

2016

2015

2014

2013

2012

2011

2010

2009

2008

2007

2006

2005

2004

2003

squeakland August 2007