squeakland August 2010

squeakland@lists.squeakfoundation.org

17 participants
28 discussions

Teaching in digital society vs industrial society
by Carlos Rabassa 21 Apr '11

21 Apr '11

I have just watched a most interesting video a friend pointed out to me. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlAnkExQabY The ideas presented in the video seem to be correct and most interesting. Even more, it seems to me the opportunity of having all those XOs already distributed, we might have the perfect opportunity to apply these ideas. Of course, I am just a volunteer. I would really like to listen to the opinion of teachers, educators and other experts. Mi impression is that, as Mr. Toffler says, the problem he describes in the U.S., is not an exclusive problem of this country. We will see it in other countries as they go from industrial to digital societies. Who is the speaker in this video_ ¿Quién es el orador en este video? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alvin_Toffler Carlos Rabassa Volunteer Plan Ceibal Support Network Montevideo, Uruguay

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Re: [squeakland] [etoys-dev] (SQ-749) and Kathleen's question on "What do you mean by Artifacts?"
by Steve Thomas 30 Oct '10

30 Oct '10

I have been reading Alan Kay's Thoughts About Teaching Science and Mathematics To Young Children<http://www.vpri.org/pdf/m2007003a_thoughts.pdf> : > I think one of the trickiest issues in this kind of design is an analogy to > the learning of science itself, and that is *"how much should the > learners/users have to do by themselves vs. how much should the > curriculum/system do for them?"* Most computer users have been mostly > exposed to "productivity tools" in which as many things as possible have > been done for them. The kinds of educational environments we are talking > about here are a*t their best when the learner does the important parts by > themselves, and any black or translucent boxes serve only on the side and > not at the center of the learning.* What is the center and *what is the > side will shift as the learning progresses, and this has to be accommodated. > * By exposing everything in Etoys as "First Principles" (which in this particular case I understand to mean, that we have a minimal set of scripting tiles and objects from which everything can be built) we avoid the "productivity tools" issue because everything is exposed. It is also a beautiful, elegant and exposes a powerful idea. The challenge in a system where everything is done from "First Principles" is that when you are designing an"educational environment" "lesson", or "Artifact" ( better terms might be "playthink" and/or "tool to think with"), it can take a lot of work to build those preferably translucent boxes. And to paraphrase another Alan Kay quote on user interface design: "If it takes one step I'll do it, If it takes two steps I might do it, if it takes three or more steps forget about it!" No, I am not arguing to make things easy for everyone, we need find ways to get kids to have "hard fun." Hard work and ragging a problem are good habits. I also strongly believe that giving kids a "blank canvas" and a great set of brushes and paints is an excellent and preffered method, but not the only one we should use. I am arguing (and struggling) with is how in a "First Principle" system like Etoys, we can find ways to make it easier for teachers/designers (ie: make them more productive). I fear I see in some folks (none on this email list of course) a tendency towards what I initially saw (and fell into myself) as the constructivism trap. Where I encountered people who thought kids should construct all knowledge themselves from Scratch (pun intended ;). As I recall Alan (and others pointing out) we can't expect kids to do that, they will repeat the same mistakes people did over thousands of years. My initial thoughts are a repository of Artifacts that teachers can use along with a set of scripts (the problem with the set of scripts idea is that the scripts in Etoys are not decoupled from the ?morphs? (not sure of the correct term here, but basically the pixels visually representing the object). Bert's idea that we have a Player Variable and the scripts that operate on it is a good one, but I think there may be some bugs there, need to test more. Now I will more directly address Kathleen's question: "What do you mean by "Artifacts". I will switch from "Artifacts" to the term "Playthinks" (which I encountered in the "The Big Book of Brain Games<http://www.amazon.com/Big-Book-Brain-Games-Mathematics/dp/0761134662>" by Ivan Moscovich). One of the best and simplest "Playthinks" for teaching I ever encountered was Robert B. Davis' classroom warm-up (which I showed at Squeakfest and have wrote about here<http://mrstevesscience.blogspot.com/2009/12/taking-tic-tac-toe-to-next-leve…>.) Basically it involves drawing on the board a 4 x 4 grid . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Then having kids pick two numbers and using those two numbers as X and Y counting from 0 at the origin point in the lower left and then If they land on the board marking an X or O until one team wins. Some of the keys to this "Playthink" are: - you let kids puzzle it out for themselves, they figure out the rules, you don't tell them - it contains a powerful idea - it can be easily extended to other concepts (negative numbers, a number is all the ways you can name it, is this game fair ...) - *its fun * Other examples of "Playthinks" would be cuisenaire rods, pentagrams, area blocks, other good "virtual manipulatives" and my feeble attempts Circle Explorer <http://www.squeakland.org/showcase/project.jsp?id=10212> and Pattern Blocks and Tools <http://www.squeakland.org/showcase/project.jsp?id=10216>. *Bert*, your comments on SQ-749 sparked my writing this, I will address it more specifically in a separate email after some more thought. Including *Alan* so he can correct any misinterpretations and hopefully comment FYI: A lot of other excelent writings from VPRI are here<http://www.vpri.org/html/writings.php>, most are Computer Science related but a number deal with educational issues and Etoys. Stephen On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 5:02 AM, Bert Freudenberg <bert(a)freudenbergs.de>wrote: > > On 12.08.2010, at 10:32, Steve Thomas wrote: > > > On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 3:32 AM, Bert Freudenberg <bert(a)freudenbergs.de> > wrote: > >> This would likely be simple to implement, but could break existing > projects. E.g. the morphing stuff in the showcase. Maybe you could take a > look? > > > > Checked "Morphing" by Kazuhiro Abe and that should be fine. Each Polygon > in the holder has the same number of vertices and the script simple changes > the positions of the vertices one at a time. > > > > "The Walkers" and associated remixes by P.A. Dreyfus uses a special > category "morphing" which would be great to get into Etoys (although I would > suggest the addition of some way to show/manage the frames) to make the > invisible more visible and to make it easier to create these kind of > animations. Anyway, whether this would be a problem or not depends on how it > is implemented. If he stores complete information about the polygon in each > frame, I see no problems. If he only stores differences and > adds/removes/repositions each vertex that MAY cause a problem. > > > > Anyway if it is a simple change and you can make it, I think I can easily > test the change by opening the project, then file-in the changes and see if > anything breaks. Or you could also ask P.A. Dreyfus (master of polygon's and > connectors) what he thinks as he knows and can check the changes against his > implementation. > > > > Stephen > > Thinking about this more I do not like the proposal. It would makes the > system less predictable. > > Having the new vertex remain at the same position is the only sensible > choice. It matches the "copy" behavior of regular objects, which also appear > in the same position. It would not scale anyway - see this image where I > only inserted 4 vertices. The position quickly converges to the next vertex > position. > > > > > Also, I'd argue that "add a vertex at beginning" and "add a vertex at end" > tiles are not needed in the first place. To be useful they would, as you > noticed, have to be "set cursor to beginning and insert vertex" and "set > cursor to end and insert vertex", because otherwise one cannot assign their > position immediately. But that makes them perform two operations that are > available separately. There is no good reason to coalesce those steps into > one. > > In any case, inserting a vertex should not change the cursor. If you want a > cursor change to occur, insert a tile. > > So my counter-proposal is: remove the "add vertex at beginning" and "add > vertex at end" tiles. (to not break existing projects, the tiles would only > be hidden) > > - Bert - > > > > _______________________________________________ > etoys-dev mailing list > etoys-dev(a)squeakland.org > http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys-dev > >

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Etoys developer chat today
by Bert Freudenberg 27 Sep '10

27 Sep '10

Please join our weekly Etoys developer chat today, as every Monday at 12 noon Squeakland Time. Follow this link to see the time in your local time zone: http://tinyurl.com/368xxgn To participate, enter your name as nickname on http://chat.squeakland.org/ and press "Login". Then say hi :-) Alternatively, use an IRC client of your choice to join #etoys on irc.freenode.net Everyone is welcome! - Bert -

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Etoys developer chat log
by Bert Freudenberg 08 Sep '10

08 Sep '10

Hi all, almost missed the chat yesterday. And when I logged in I got distracted by #olpc-devel talk. A minute later David came back, but I didn't see that. Sorry. But: If I'm not there, that's no reason not to chat :) Anybody can lead the discussion if it gets too disorganized, but usually we're pretty civilized, so it should rarely be necessary. So here is a rule: Do not wait more than 15 minutes. Just start. I'll see it in the logs later so I can still post a summary (though it would be awesome if someone beat me to it). Anyway, next chat is next Monday, same time as always: http://tinyurl.com/3ytdm3d Hope you'll be there (and I'll try to attend too). - Bert - [21:02:37] --> Richo2 (~c9d56472(a)skylab.immuexa.com) has joined #etoys [21:05:08] --> dcorking (~dcorking(a)82.152.173.174) has joined #etoys [21:05:13] <Richo2> hi [21:06:06] <dcorking> hi Richo2 - when does the meeting start? [21:07:36] <dcorking> is storybot down again? [21:11:53] <Richo2> I think it should have started already [21:13:09] <dcorking> I have only lurked in a couple of these. bertf normally leads them doesn't he? Is randall travelling at the moment? [21:13:31] --> scottwal (~scottwal(a)99-40-5-235.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net) has joined #etoys [21:17:00] <-- Richo2 (~c9d56472(a)skylab.immuexa.com) has quit (Quit: CGI:IRC (Ping timeout)) [21:21:13] <bertf> hi folks - sorry I'm late [21:21:26] <bertf> you could've started already ;) [21:24:59] <bertf> dcorking: storybot has been down for months, and it's unlikely to come back [21:25:12] <bertf> jecel was looking onto other logging options [21:25:19] <bertf> for now I just email the logs manually [21:26:18] <dcorking> shame: I guess a decision should be made and the link removed from http://squeakland.org/discuss/ [21:36:37] <dcorking> is the meeting starting? if not, any thoughts on jecel's idea on porting Cog VM to the XO-1? [21:38:46] <jecel> I was looking at the Cog sources to get an idea of how complex this would be. It seems doable, but not easy [21:40:05] <dcorking> hmm. Sounds like something that would distract the squeak experts from doing the next Sugar release on time, and not something for average smalltalkers. [21:40:25] <jecel> About the logging, I didn't remember we had agreed that I would check the options and so haven't yet done so [21:40:47] <dcorking> however, I wonder if qemu could be used to emulate the missing instructions: at least as a proof of concept [22:07:44] <dcorking> is the meeting over? [22:10:43] <dcorking> does the showcase still give trouble when a user uploads a new version of an existing project? [23:47:14] <-- dcorking (~dcorking(a)82.152.173.174) has quit (Quit: Leaving)

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vote for your favorite web & showcase issues
by Timothy Falconer 01 Sep '10

01 Sep '10

Hi everyone, You can see the current issues related to the Squeakland web and showcase here: http://tracker.squeakland.org/secure/IssueNavigator.jspa?requestId=10610 With an account, you can vote for the ones you want finished first, which will help the web team get a sense of what the community wants most. Or you can pick your top five and respond to this email. Immuexa (and me) get our marching orders from Rita & the web team, so letting them know will get quicker results. Take care, Tim -- Timothy Falconer Waveplace Foundation http://waveplace.org + 1 610 624 3760

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What are we doing these days
by Carlos Rabassa 31 Aug '10

31 Aug '10

Rita, following your suggestion in yesterday´s message, let me tell you all what has kept me busy the last few days: One With lots of help from Kathleen Harness and Bert Freudenberg, I have been translating some of the Etoys Quick Guides that Kathleen offers at: http://www.etoysillinois.org Quite a few had been translated by Sdenka Salas Pilco of Perú but fortunately Kathleen keeps generating new ones and that´s what creates the need to accelerate the translation process. I am quite enthusiastic and optimistic about the increased interest in Etoys and the use of computers in the schools in Uruguay. Hope the translations to Spanish of these excellent guides will help keep this interest very much alive and growing. In the near future I will start publishing this guides, which are Etoys projects themselves, in the Squeakland Showcase. I keep watching the list of Squeakers at http://squeakland.org/squeakers/ and specifically the summary table at the end of that page. Uruguay is currently number two on this table of number of squeakers per country. It is quickly approaching position number one. Two To do my best with the translations I am spending the necessary time to understand well what they teach, by following the examples. This made me realize a few important things: - I have forgotten a lot of the many interesting things I had learned, particularly through Tim Falconer´s videos. - How many things I have learned these days by studying the Quick Guides. - How lazy I had been, not using them before. - How interesting it is how much we learn when presented the information in small bites. I have a tendency I understand is quite common, to try to learn everything before I start using my newly acquired knowledge. This is probably why until recently I had not paid much attention to Kathleen´s Quick Guides. I was looking for some place where I could study everything about Etoys before really using this interesting application. And this was my unconscious attitude in spite of having assured so many about how easy it is to use Etoys! I believe this has to do with my educational background in uruguayan schools that follow the traditional european ideas quite different from the U.S. schools´s practice of learning by doing. Interesting to read the recent comments from Mike Dawson of Afghanistan, who has made similar observations based on his south asian experience. Three I have been quite active reading and writing at several forums. In addition to this one, I usually follow: olpc-sur(a)lists.laptop.org olpc-uruguay-request(a)lists.laptop.org maho(a)realness.org Four With the enthusiasm from learning a few things with the Quick Guides, and before forgetting everything again, I created a new project which I published earlier today. You may see it and download it at the Squeakland showcase: Calculo Pi Aguja (2010-Aug-31 9:15 EDT) by Carlos Rabassa, RAP Ceibal <carlos> Please open it, it is both in English and Spanish. Five I am trying to find the time to study this page The Culture of the Web | Fame Foundry http://www.famefoundry.com/3883/the-culture-of-the-web/ it is a quite interesting explanation about how information is flowing these days and how to learn and take advantage of this situation brought to us by internet and the torrent of information it produces. Carlos Rabassa Volunteer Plan Ceibal Support Network Montevideo, Uruguay

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Re: [squeakland] Teachers can make QuickGuides for their own lessons
by Steve Thomas 27 Aug '10

27 Aug '10

Ted, Having the Standard ones shown first makes sense. But within the sets of standard and user created guides the items are not listed in alphabetical order. To show what I mean, here is a Screenshot of current ordering: [image: Screen shot 2010-08-26 at 7.30.18 PM.png] So one possible improvement (for next release, Bert is already over worked) would be to list them in alphabetical order to facilitate easier lookup. The order of the standard one can be easily fixed by sorting the index.txt file (I tried modifying this file it changed the order and it worked. Attached is a sorted version of the file, I did a cross check and it has the same number of lines and also sorted the new and previous versions doing a diff to ensure no unintended changes). Sorting of the user added guides would have to be done in code. I found a bug in my typing ;) the .pr was at the end, here is a screenshot of the files in the QuickGuides folder: [image: Screen shot 2010-08-26 at 7.32.40 PM.png]you will notice NavBarBob has two versions. When I compare what is displayed in the guide with version 002 they are different. So while the convention is that the largest numbered version is the one fetched, my test on a Macintosh with Etoys Alpha 2 version 4.1 build 2382 shows the version 001 being fetched. The work around is simple I just need to ensure there is only one version in the directory. Thanks, Stephen On Thu, Aug 26, 2010 at 7:06 PM, Ted Kaehler <Ted(a)vpri.org> wrote: > Steve, > If you name the project "NavBarBob.001.pr" instead of > "NavBarBob.pr.001", everything should work normally. Our convention is that > .pr is the extension. The version number is before that. > The largest numbered version will be the one fetched. If there is > any issue, just remove all but the latest version. > In the JumpTo menu, the standard known categories appear first, and > then the new ones. > > --Ted. > > > > At 8:32 AM -0400 8/26/10, Steve Thomas wrote: > >> Thanks folks, got it working. >> >> Couple of minor points: >> >> 1. After I copy the .pr file to QuickGuides, I need to click on the >> "?" icon to close and then re-open the guides for my new help page to be >> visible. >> 2. If I copy two files into QuickGuides: NavBarBob.pr.001 and >> NavBarBob.pr.002 the file used is the .001 version >> 3. If I name the file with numbers at the end the name (ex: >> NavBarBob2.pr.001) the numbers do not show up. >> 4. Noticed the "pick lists" (the list of "help topic" you see when >> clicking on an item in index or from "jump to..." is not in alphabetical >> order. >> 5. If you have multiple books (and other things) in the saved project >> it only shows one of the books. You can also get a book from the Supplies >> Bin and it works fine. The advantage of copying from the "Help" flap is the >> book is sized consistent with the other Guides and the flap. So it seems it >> opens the .pr on demand and "imports" the first book object it finds nto the >> Help flap, cool. >> >> >> This could be used for things other than QuickGuides, such a personal >> object catalog of items you create for re-use in other projects. You would >> probably want a different flap for that and a way to easily access that flap >> perhaps from the Sugar Navigator Flap. Also you would probably want a >> special directory for those items which is language independent. >> >> Thanks, >> Stephen >> > > -- > Ted Kaehler > Viewpoints Research Institute > http://www.vpri.org/html/team_bios/kaehler.html > _______________________________________________ > squeakland mailing list > squeakland(a)squeakland.org > http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/squeakland >

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Teachers can make QuickGuides for their own lessons
by Ted Kaehler 27 Aug '10

27 Aug '10

Folks, There is a very useful new feature in the latest EToys version. Anyone can make Quickguides. If you are teaching a curriculum, you can create subject-matter guides for your material. Your new guides will not appear directly on the help index page. Instead, look in the "Jump To..." menu at the lower right of the QuickGuides. Your guides will appear in a new category. It will be at the bottom of the "Jump To..." menu. To create a new guide: Click the Help button [?] to see a guide. Open a halo on the flap. Copy the bookmorph out of the flap. Use the halos to completely change the contents. Create help pages for your new topic. A guide can have as many pages as you want (more than 4 is OK). When you are done, write the entire project out using "Keep the current project". It is now a .pr file. Name your guide using capitals to start words. The first word is the category. All guides in a category start with the same word. Put the .pr file into the QuickGuides folder of your language. Close and open Quickguides. (Click the Help button [?] once to close help, and once again to open it.) Look in the "Jump To..." menu to see your category and guides. (If the instructions are unclear, please post a corrected version.) (Thank you to Kathleen Harness for showing us how creative QuickGuides can be.) --Ted. -- Ted Kaehler Viewpoints Research Institute http://www.vpri.org/html/team_bios/kaehler.html

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Re: [squeakland] Teachers can make QuickGuides for their own lessons
by Steve Thomas 26 Aug '10

26 Aug '10

Ted, Please define "latest Etoys version": Etoys 4.0 2336, Etoys 4.1 alpha 2 or Etoys Dev Image after "update code from server" Where do I find "keep the current project", is this available in "Etoys friendly" mode? Thanks, Stephen On Wed, Aug 25, 2010 at 1:03 PM, Ted Kaehler <Ted(a)vpri.org> wrote: > Folks, > There is a very useful new feature in the latest EToys version. > Anyone can make Quickguides. If you are teaching a curriculum, you can > create subject-matter guides for your material. > Your new guides will not appear directly on the help index page. > Instead, look in the "Jump To..." menu at the lower right of the > QuickGuides. Your guides will appear in a new category. It will be at the > bottom of the "Jump To..." menu. > > To create a new guide: > Click the Help button [?] to see a guide. > Open a halo on the flap. > Copy the bookmorph out of the flap. > Use the halos to completely change the contents. > Create help pages for your new topic. > A guide can have as many pages as you want (more than 4 is OK). > When you are done, write the entire project out using > "Keep the current project". It is now a .pr file. > Name your guide using capitals to start words. The first word is the > category. All guides in a category start with the same word. > Put the .pr file into the QuickGuides folder of your language. > Close and open Quickguides. (Click the Help button [?] once to close help, > and once again to open it.) > Look in the "Jump To..." menu to see your category and guides. > > (If the instructions are unclear, please post a corrected version.) > (Thank you to Kathleen Harness for showing us how creative QuickGuides can > be.) > > --Ted. > > -- > Ted Kaehler > Viewpoints Research Institute > http://www.vpri.org/html/team_bios/kaehler.html > _______________________________________________ > squeakland mailing list > squeakland(a)squeakland.org > http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/squeakland >

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Re: [squeakland] [etoys-dev] SQ-94 - Flip and Tumble
by Steve Thomas 17 Aug '10

17 Aug '10

Bert, Congratulations!!! You have just solved a problem that has frustrated kids all over! (okay the problem was solved already but no one I know other than you knew the solution). For whatever reason kids love to make fish tanks (just look athttp://www.etoysillinois.org/library.php?tags=Seaside). And every kid I have seen try and do this runs into the same problem. When the fish gets to the end of the tank it "swims" out of the tank. Well this is nice because it leads them to discover (either through the help guides or by bugging the teacher to find out) about the bounce tile. This leads to the problem that the When you paint a fish and it bounces off the walls it looks like it swimming upside down. The kids usually come up with a solution that they have to draw the fish in a certain way so that even though the graphic "flipped" you can't tell. But by setting the "rotation style" you have solve the problem and you can draw assymetrical fish and that "swim properly" My description is probably hard to follow so here is a test for all your Fish loving Etoy fans. 1. Draw a fish on the screen. 2. Bring up its halo and create a script with "forward by 5" then run it once 1. Is it swimming in the correct direction? 2. If not, play with the heading and "forward direction" settings ("forward direction" tile can be found using the search or in the geometry category) 3. Now get the fish to swim to the left or right. 1. What happens when it reaches the wall? 2. Can you fix it so it doesn't swim out of the tank? 1. Hint: Look in the excellent quick guides (that big "?" in the upper left will open them for you) and click on "Script Tiles" and then "bounce motion" 4. When the fish bounces does it look like you expected or what you want? 1. Can you describe how the fish graphic "transformed" (in Spanish, transformado, in German verwandelt, in Greek μετατρέπονται, In Japanese: 変換, in kid speak: "it looks different". Don't get hung up on the names (especially the ones mathemeticians use ;) just figure out what they mean, that's the important thing. You only need to know the names to pass the test in school. To past the tests in life knowing the meanings and how to use them is MUCH more important. 2. Try drawing a fish on a piece of paper and cutting it out. Then move it through the air in an imaginary fish tank you can see in your mind (seeing things again? Good ;) How do you do to the fish when it reaches the edge of the tank and turns around? Make the fish move the way you would expect a real fish to move. Then make it move the way it just moved in Etoys. This is the problem with Etoys (and anything else you use to make a model), it does what you tell it (or in this case its default behavior) and not necessarily exactly what happens in the real world. 5. Know have your fish swim left and right and down a little. 1. What happens when it bounces off the bottom of your ocean? 2. Can you do that with your paper fish? Can you describe how you had to make your paper fish move? 3. Hey imagine you are a fish and make yourself or a friend move like that crazy Etoy's fish you just created. 6. Okay, now how can we make our Etoys fish look more like a real fish? 1. Well do what Uncle Bert suggested and get the halo for your fish, click on the menu icon, then on "set rotation style". Then try and find a rotation style that makes your Etoys fish swim more like a real fish. 2. Once you do this, can you figure out how this will change how the turn tiles work? (Good luck, it is far from obvious and really hard to figure out, but I am confident with patience and perseverance you can do it, or just about anything else you put your mind to). Dank Onkel Bert!!! Stephen On Tue, Aug 17, 2010 at 6:32 AM, Bert Freudenberg <bert(a)freudenbergs.de>wrote: > You still make it sound like the new flip tiles and the old rotation-style > tile were somehow equivalent. They are not. > > I agree, however, that having a tile to set the rotation style is not > strictly necessary - because it it available as menu item. I am not sure why > it was added in the first place. Perhaps because tiles are more discoverable > than menu entries. I couldn't imagine using this tile in a script. But > changing the rotation style in the viewer while an object is bouncing around > the screen is enlightening (though the up-down style seems to be there just > for completeness, have not found an application yet). > > Anyway, independent of the new flip tiles: Do we want to hide the > rotation-style tile? > > - Bert - > > On 17.08.2010, at 04:10, Steve Thomas wrote: > > Okay read Bert's comment in Tracker and I now understand that the graphic > is flipped without changing heading (which differs from the implementation > using "rotation style" which by design changes heading to cause the flip). > > So given that we want to have the minimum set of tiles from which you can > create things. Why do we need both? > I understand the need to keep the older rotation style methods so older > projects don't break, but IMNSOBOWO we should hide the rotation style tile. > > Stephen > > On Mon, Aug 16, 2010 at 9:20 AM, Steve Thomas <sthomas1(a)gosargon.com>wrote: > >> >> >> On Mon, Aug 16, 2010 at 8:52 AM, Bert Freudenberg <bert(a)freudenbergs.de>wrote: >> >>> >>> On 16.08.2010, at 04:01, Steve Thomas wrote: >>> >>> Tried the new flip and tumble works great (for sketches, would be nice if >>> this worked for all costumes, polygons would be trivial ;) >>> >>> Now that we have flip and tumble, do we need rotation style? To me its >>> confusing to have both and flip and tumble are much simpler to learn and >>> use. >>> >>> >>> Yes we need it. How else would you make a painted object go upright on >>> the screen? >>> >> >> I agree we need the ability the "flip left right" and "flip up down" >> functionality and the new tiles (now called "flip" and "tumble") >> provide that functionality. >> >> When I asked do we need rotation style, I was referring to the scripting >> tile in the graphic category of the viewer not removing the functionality >> which is provided in the code and accesible via the new "flip" and "tumble" >> tiles. >> >> >>> It disables actual rotation and automatically flips the graphic depending >>> on heading. Flip and tumble are just one-shot operations that change the >>> graphics. >>> >> Yes I understand that as you increase heading the graphic reaches a >> tipping point around 90 or 180 degrees. I just don't see why we need both >> methods, although to ensure old projects work, I was suggesting simply >> hiding the tile "rotation style". >> >> Stephen >> >> I think we hide the "rotation style" tile when in Etoys Friendly mode. >>> >>> >>> Did you mean to write "we should"? >>> >> >> Yes. Although "we" is probably a poor choice of words as I do no coding, >> that is left to over burdened, yet much appreciated developers such as >> yourself. >> >> Stephen >> >>> - Bert - >>> >> > > _______________________________________________ > etoys-dev mailing list > etoys-dev(a)squeakland.org > http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys-dev > >

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squeakland August 2010