squeakland September 2011

squeakland@lists.squeakfoundation.org

16 participants
20 discussions

Re: [squeakland] [IAEP] Why is Scratch more popular than Etoys?
by karl ramberg 19 Sep '11

19 Sep '11

On Sun, Sep 18, 2011 at 10:57 PM, Jecel Assumpcao Jr. <jecel(a)merlintec.com> wrote: > About programming for the masses, I see two educational reasons to > insist on that. One (rather weak) reason is to demystify something that > is everywhere. People will be dealing with software all the time and if > having done one or two toy applications as a child makes them see that > it is not magic then that is nice. > > A much better reason is Papert's: so the children will have an object to > think with. The idea is to learn to learn but we need a suitable way to > talk about learning strategies. Normal school tends to encourage a very > poor strategy: take a guess, see if the teacher confirms it is right and > if not take another guess. Not only is the search time long and > unbounded, you also need some external way of checking your results > which is something you won't always have. > > Teaching programming is just a way to be able to teach debugging, or > successive approximation. You don't throw away incorrect attempts but > instead build on them. And you learn to figure out for yourself if they > are correct or not, and how far and in what way they are incorrect so > you know what to change. With Etoy now we have few projects that challenges a notion and show you a way to get there. We have the project showing the most basic stuff. I think we need more projects that features aspects of the system and how to use them. Of course Mr.Steve has made many nice videos :-) http://mrstevesscience.blogspot.com/ Karl

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Re: [squeakland] [IAEP] Why is Scratch more popular than Etoys?
by karl ramberg 18 Sep '11

18 Sep '11

I looked at this TED presentation today: http://www.ted.com/talks/clay_shirky_how_cognitive_surplus_will_change_the_… He say there are a trillion hours of participatory value up for grabs. We could do with some more people working on Etoys :-) I also looked at these two web forum pages discussing programming for kids pages today but not much love for Etoys: http://pozorvlak.livejournal.com/169225.html http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/kgbzq/why_we_should_teach_our_… There seems to be a mismatch from we perceive as values and strong features of Etoys and what other people see. Why do we not get the ideas out? What makes is so hard ? Do people test Etoys and drop it ? Karl On Mon, Sep 5, 2011 at 10:44 PM, Jecel Assumpcao Jr. <jecel(a)merlintec.com> wrote: > Alan Kay wrote: >> [...] >> Then we handed Etoys over to the Squeak Foundation, and the version >> they put out online retains the classroom UI with flaps. > > Actually, that would be the Squeakland Foundation. But in the Squeak > Board at least Bert and I try to represent the interests of the Etoys > (and Scratch) users. > > One reason for Scratch's popularity is the restrictions they have made > which upset some people in the OLPC community. Etoys, on the other hand, > suffered from some of the problems that open source projects have - > students and teacher become very upset when some project they have > created won't load into a newer version of the system. Note that I am > fully on the side of Etoys here, but we have to be aware of the costs. > > It is interesting to me that Scratch's explict loops (compared to Etoys' > clock driven scripts) don't seem to cause any difficulties for beginners > nor for young children. That shows how important it is to test stuff > rather than follow our intuitions. > > What I would really like (in the sense that I am trying to get funding > to pay a group of people to build) would be a system within > Croquet/Cobalt that would start out like Scratch, then become more and > more like Etoys as the programmer's skills improved with a smooth path > all the way to the Smalltalk level. > > Jens Mönig, the guy who did BYOB (Build Your Own Block extension of > Scratch), also created Elements, which is a Scratch syntax for > Smalltalk-80: > > http://www.chirp.scratchr.org/blog/?p=24 > > So it is easy enough to see how far this approach can scale. > > -- Jecel > > _______________________________________________ > squeakland mailing list > squeakland(a)squeakland.org > http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/squeakland >

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Fwd: Carlos Oten inició otra discusión "Etoys. El Autito De Etoys En El Mundo Real. Primeras experiencias robóticas." el Red de Apoyo al Plan Ceibal
by Carlos Rabassa 14 Sep '11

14 Sep '11

Begin forwarded message: > From: Red de Apoyo al Plan Ceibal <mail(a)rapceibal.ning.com> > Date: September 14, 2011 8:40:12 AM GMT-03:00 > To: "CarlosNennyRabassa(a)gmail.com" <CarlosNennyRabassa(a)gmail.com> > Subject: Carlos Oten inició otra discusión "Etoys. El Autito De Etoys En El Mundo Real. Primeras experiencias robóticas." el Red de Apoyo al Plan Ceibal > Reply-To: do-not-reply(a)rapceibal.ning.com > > Carlos Oten inició la discusión "Etoys. El Autito De Etoys En El Mundo Real. Primeras experiencias robóticas." el Red de Apoyo al Plan Ceibal. > > Para ver esta discusión, ve a: > http://rapceibal.ning.com/forum/topics/etoys-el-autito-de-etoys-en-el-mundo… > > -- > Para dejar de seguir las nuevas discusiones, ve a: > http://rapceibal.ning.com/forum/topic/list?unfollowNewTopic=1&xg_source=msg… > > Para controlar qué correos electrónicos recibes en Red de Apoyo al Plan Ceibal, ve a: > http://rapceibal.ning.com/profiles/profile/emailSettings?xg_source=msg_foru… > Carlos Rabassa Voluntario Red de Apoyo al Plan Ceibal Montevideo, Uruguay

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Fwd: [Olpc-uruguay] sumo.uy 2011
by Carlos Rabassa 12 Sep '11

12 Sep '11

May I forward message received. A quick translation: Subject: sumo.uy 2011 Hi! I want to invite you all to participate in the robotics event organized by the Engineering School of Uruguay´s National University, on September 15th, 16th and 17th, it is called sumo.uy. This year there will be many activities related to the XO, since it is possible to participate in the sumbot category, programming from TurtleArt (http://www.fing.edu.uy/inco/eventos/sumo.uy/wiki/index.php/Actividad_Tortug…) or in the Butiá Robot category (http://www.fing.edu.uy/inco/proyectos/butia/). There will also be programming workshops with the Butiá Robot for the general public and many other things related to robotics. You may see a list of categories in: > http://www.fing.edu.uy/inco/eventos/sumo.uy/categorias.html and the program for the event in: > http://www.fing.edu.uy/inco/eventos/sumo.uy/programa.html Carlos Rabassa Volunteer Plan Ceibal Support Network Montevideo, Uruguay Begin forwarded message: > From: Andres Aguirre <aguirrea(a)gmail.com> > Date: September 12, 2011 2:19:40 AM GMT-03:00 > To: Comunidad ceibalJAM <olpc-uruguay(a)lists.laptop.org>, "OLPC en castellano para usuarios, docentes, v" <olpc-sur(a)lists.laptop.org> > Cc: Gonzalo Tejera - InCo <gtejera(a)fing.edu.uy>, Federico Andrade <fandrade9(a)gmail.com> > Subject: [Olpc-uruguay] sumo.uy 2011 > Reply-To: Comunidad ceibalJAM <olpc-uruguay(a)lists.laptop.org> > > Hola! quería invitarlos a todos a participar el 15, 16 y 17 en el > evento de robótica organizado por la Facultad de Ingeniería de la > Universidad de la República del Uruguay, sumo.uy. > Este año van a existir muchas actividades relacionadas con las xo, ya > que se puede participar en la categoría sumbot programando desde > tortugarte (http://www.fing.edu.uy/inco/eventos/sumo.uy/wiki/index.php/Actividad_Tortug…) > O las categoría del robot butiá (http://www.fing.edu.uy/inco/proyectos/butia/). > También van a haber talleres de programación con el robot butiá para > todo público y muchas otras cosas relacionadas con la robótica. > > Puede verse una lista de las categorías en: > http://www.fing.edu.uy/inco/eventos/sumo.uy/categorias.html > y el programa del evento en: > http://www.fing.edu.uy/inco/eventos/sumo.uy/programa.html > > saludos > > -- > /\ndrés > _______________________________________________ > Olpc-uruguay mailing list > Olpc-uruguay(a)lists.laptop.org > http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/olpc-uruguay

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XO Film: Cow giving birth / Parto de una vaca
by Carlos Rabassa 09 Sep '11

09 Sep '11

ENGLISH TEXT FOLLOWS SPANISH Imagen tomada de una XO por un alumno de la escuela 24 de Cardal [Uruguay] Parto de una vaca http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOzBTGGVWNg Este video lo han visto más de 233,000 personas. Como yo recién lo vi hoy por primera vez, pienso que tal vez haya otros que no lo vieron. Fue publicado en YouTube hace más de 4 años. SPANISH TEXT Film taken with an XO by a student from Elementary School # 24 in Cardal, [Uruguay] Cow giving birth http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOzBTGGVWNg More than 233,000 have viewed this video. Since I only saw it today for the first time, I thought maybe there are others who haven't seen it. It was published in YouTube more than 4 years ago. Carlos Rabassa Voluntario Red de Apoyo al Plan Ceibal Montevideo, Uruguay

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LACLO 2011 en Montevideo en Octubre en Facultad de Ingeniería
by Carlos Rabassa 08 Sep '11

08 Sep '11

Acabo de enterarme de este evento, no sé si ya se había publicado antes: http://laclo2011.seciu.edu.uy/ El plazo para inscribirse para participar, a precio rebajado, vence dentro de tres días. Parece muy interesante pero, sugiero mirar los precios antes de entusiasmarse demasiado. Carlos Rabassa Voluntario Red de Apoyo al Plan Ceibal Montevideo, Uruguay

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Why is Scratch more popular than Etoys?
by Steve Thomas 06 Sep '11

06 Sep '11

I have taught both Scratch and Etoys to kids and hands down most kids prefer Scratch. I also prefer Scratch for certain things, but prefer Etoys for most learning and teaching. What can we learn from Scratch (and TurtleArt et al) to improve Etoys? And vice versa what can be done to improve Scratch? . I have ideas, which I will share later, but I am curious to hear the thoughts of others (as mine add nothing to my current understanding and repeating them will simply further ingrain incomplete and incorrect assumptions and prejudices ;) Stephen P.S. I fully believe kids should learn multiple languages and am not looking for the "one ring to rule them all." Each language/environment has its advantages and we need multiple.

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NYTimes.com: In Classroom of Future, Stagnant Scores
by carnen＠mac.com 04 Sep '11

04 Sep '11

This page was sent to you by: carnen(a)mac.com. TECHNOLOGY | September 04, 2011 Grading the Digital School: In Classroom of Future, Stagnant Scores By MATT RICHTEL Schools are embracing digital learning, but evidence is scarce that the expensive technology is improving educational outcomes. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/04/technology/technology-in-schools-faces-qu… ---------------------------------------------------------- ABOUT THIS E-MAIL This e-mail was sent to you by a friend through NYTimes.com's E-mail This Article service. For general information about NYTimes.com, write to help(a)nytimes.com. NYTimes.com 620 Eighth Avenue New York, NY 10018 Copyright 2011 The New York Times Company

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5th International Conference on ICT4DE in Nepal
by SeaGate Institute of Technology 03 Sep '11

03 Sep '11

5th International Conference on ICT4DE in Nepal http://smfon.org.np/conference/index1.php You may like International Conference on ICT4DE Like: http://www.facebook.com/pages/International-Conference-on-ICT4DE/17997676874 2640 Group: http://www.facebook.com/?ref=home#!/groups/5thICT4DE/ International Link: http://southasia.oneworld.net/event/international-conference-on-ict-for-deve lopment-and-education

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Re: [squeakland] More than one input for a script?
by Steve Thomas 03 Sep '11

03 Sep '11

Randy, Moving covnersation to squeakland list so others can comment. See my comments below on your latest email. A lot of what I believe you are trying to do in Etoys (based on your example NetLogo script) can be done, but it needs a seperate email to respond. Stephen On Fri, Sep 2, 2011 at 11:02 AM, Avigail Snir <avigail(a)snir.org> wrote: > From: R.D. Latimer [mailto:rdlatimer@gmail.com] > > *Sent:* Friday, September 02, 2011 7:40 AM > *To:* Avigail Snir > *Cc:* Harness, Kathleen; Allard, Fred > > *Subject:* Re: [squeakland] More than one input for a script?**** > > ** ** > > Thank you Avigail for sharing these projects. They look great, they'll be > helpful in our program. > > I'm not sure why the programming team for Etoys has limited the number of > inputs to scripts. > Most likely to maintain simplicity would be my guess. > A script can be seen as a procedure in a programming language. Also It > would also be nice if these scripts could return values, then there could be > 'function' scripts. So in that sense, Etoys eventually may get to a > limitation when connecting with other computer languages available. > > BYOB/Scratch has incorporated procedures/functions into Scratch via > programmable blocks - which for me are analogous to Etoys scripts. > What you say makes sense for functional programming languages. Etoys was inspired by Alan Kay's work on the Dynabook and smalltalk and thus was designed to be object oriented. Now Alan's definition of object oriented is very different from the common understanding, I would highly recommend Alan's talk at HPI <http://www.tele-task.de/de/archive/lecture/overview/5819/>. Etoys is built on first principles with the goal of being able to build "anything" from a small set of first principle objects. > > In Etoys is there a data structure for lists/arrays of data? > Etoys uses the concept of a collection which is more powerful than the Scratch and BYOB use of lists in that anything can be in a collection. You can use a Holder (which is a specialized version of a playfield) to iterate through objects (holders, books, pages and world are all specialized versions of playfield which support the collection category). That said you also have the full power of sqeuak underneath. Simply click on the menu icon in the script editor and click "show code textually" and you can see the Squeak version of the code. Unfortunately the translation is only one way you can go from tiles to text, but not text to tiles. BYOB's speed slows down when accessing lists of data, at least from what > I've seen so far. THat can be a limitation, the speed issue. > For example, if I want to play a melody from a long list of note values, the > speed of accessing parts of the list is important for the rhythm of the > melody. > Also, sorting a list of numbers can be slow in BYOB. > Check this thread from the squeakland mail list<http://forum.world.st/Re-squeakland-Digest-Vol-99-Issue-5-td3659222.html> which discusses playing musical notes in Etoys. Bert has a nice solution and shows the script and use of a Holder. > > Thanks again for helping out, > Randy**** > > On Thu, Sep 1, 2011 at 7:39 PM, Avigail Snir <avigail(a)snir.org> wrote:**** > > Hi Randy,**** > > My name is Avigail Snir and I am a member of the Etoys Illinois team.**** > > Regarding your mail to Kathleen Harness: I think that 2 features of Etoys > will help you get most of the things you mentioned:**** > > variables: One can create new variables for an object (e.g. value for > "forward by" or for "turn by") by clicking the "V" on the top of the viewer > (brown background) . this variables can replace any numeric value just by > dragging it over the location in the script one wish it to be (drag while > cursor is on the name of the variable, not by the assignment long green > arrow).**** > > The value of this variables, and any others can be changed directly at the > viewer, or at a watcher one can produce. For watchers look at the build in > Help guide in the MENU section. To open the Help guide click the "?" up in > the Navigator. Every section has many entries. Every such entry is in the > format of a small 4 page book.**** > > **** > > Random numbers are available to replace any numerical value. You can find > out how to use them at the ScriptTile section of the Help guide.**** > > **** > > In the Help guide, under Object Catalog you will find instructions for use > of the readymade slider. The slider is now available when you open the > supplies box in the navigator, at the time the guide was written, you had to > look for it in the Object Catalog.**** > > **** > > Sample of projects that are using this features:**** > > A canon with sliders for Gravity, Angle and Speed of the ball:**** > > http://etoysillinois.org/library?sl=1626&viewProject**** > > A guided inquiry into the geometry of Forward and Turn, with full analysis. > **** > > http://etoysillinois.org/files/Geometry%20of%20Fand%20T%202%20_3_.pdf**** > > The Etoys project that correspond to it is: > http://etoysillinois.org/library?sl=241&viewProject**** > > Draw Polygons: http://etoysillinois.org/library?sl=1621&viewProject**** > > Create a Spider Web: http://etoysillinois.org/library?sl=1864&viewProject > **** > > Leap Frog: http://etoysillinois.org/library?sl=841**** > > **** > > For thought provoking small projects: **** > > Something About Gravity http://etoysillinois.org/library?sl=566**** > > Some Things About Bouncing Part 1: > http://etoysillinois.org/library?sl=1002**** > > **** > > **** > > This is a long list and I am not sure it answers some/any of your > questions.**** > > Please feel free to ask more, or contact me to set time for a Skype > meeting.**** > > **** > > Avigail**** > > **** > > **** > > *From:* Harness, Kathleen [mailto:kharness@illinois.edu] > *Sent:* Thursday, September 01, 2011 12:06 PM > *To:* R.D. Latimer > *Cc:* Allard, Fred; Snir, Avigail > *Subject:* RE: [squeakland] More than one input for a script?**** > > **** > > Hi Randy, > Etoys has is rich in programming features, tools and menus and is powerful > and very flexible. Do you intend to use the projects as models of one that > students will create or as models where they will use your pre-built > projects for experiments? > > Are you teaching elementary/middle school/high school? Are you a math > teacher with an interest in programming or a CS teacher? It sounds like you > are trying many OOPL languages and having fun doing it. > > The example you sent can be done in Etoys. I am copying Avigail Snir who > works with me at EtoysIllinois and she may be better able to guide you in > making these models. We have found that Etoys has very few limits within > the software but that the more experienced the programmer the more the > assets can be exploited. For example, StarLogo TNG is very strong at > modeling with many agents but Etoys can do the same with siblings or by > using the Particles found in the Object Catalog. Particles is a special set > of tiles that can be used to make massively parallel particle simulations. > > I wonder, have you had time to read the Quick Guides? I think many of your > gerneral questions are answered in the introductions that they provide to > basic tools, tiles, and techniques. Also, the Library Collection has some > projects similar to the ones you are describing and they could be > downloaded, mixed, remixed and saved on you machine to use as you wish. The > CS4HS projects do not have lesson materials (yet) but the projects can be > downloaded and Viewers and scripts can be examined. They use more advanced > math and more sophisticated script constructions. > > The K-5 Technology Passport projects have lesson plans that I wrote for > teachers with no previous experience with programming. The CS4K5 projects > have similar lesson plans for the same audience but are a different set of > project examples. > Regards, > Kathleen > > **** > ------------------------------ > > *From:* R.D. Latimer [rdlatimer(a)gmail.com] > *Sent:* Thursday, September 01, 2011 9:03 AM > *To:* Harness, Kathleen > *Cc:* Allard, Fred > > *Subject:* Re: [squeakland] More than one input for a script? > **** > > Hi Kathleen, > Here's a sample NetLogo spinpolygon program, this is one of the programs > Fred and I used last spring with the kids. There's lots to talk about and > analyze here. > > I'm working on an Etoys version, but Etoys may not have some of the > programming features available. > Setup and Clearscreen, clears everything and creates the turtle objects > in random locations. > Go draws 'spinning' polygons with the number of sides and length of each > side set by the sliders on the interface > Flowers - has each turtle draw 5 'spinning' polygons in random locations > RandomFlowers - each turtle draws 2 'spinning' polygons with random > numbers of sides and random side lengths. > > Thanks again, > Randy Latimer > > > to setup > clear-all > crt numberofturtles > ask turtles [clearscreen] > end > > to clearscreen > penup > setxy random-xcor random-ycor > set heading 90 > pendown > end > > to go > ask turtles [ > set color rgb random 256 random 256 random 256 > spinpolygon sides sidelength 20 > ] > end > > to flowers > ask turtles [ > repeat 5 [ > leap random-xcor random-ycor > set color rgb random 256 random 256 random 256 > spinpolygon sides sidelength 20 > ] > ] > end > > to randomflowers > ask turtles [ > repeat 2 [ > leap random-xcor random-ycor > set color rgb random 256 random 256 random 256 > spinpolygon (random 9 + 3) (random 3 + 2) (random 10 + 4) > ] > ] > end > > to square [len] > repeat 4 [fd len rt 90] > end > > to polygon [numsides len] > repeat numsides [fd len lt 360 / numsides] > end > > to spinpolygon [numsides len times] > repeat times [polygon numsides len lt 360 / times] > end > > to spinpolygoncolor [numsides len times] > repeat times [set color rgb random 256 random 256 random 256 > polygon numsides len lt 360 / times] > end > > to leapposition > ask turtles [leap random-xcor random-ycor] > end > > to leap [x y] > penup > setxy x y > pendown > end **** > > On Thu, Sep 1, 2011 at 9:40 AM, R.D. Latimer <rdlatimer(a)gmail.com> wrote:* > *** > > Thanks again for your help Kathleen, this is very nice of you to help out > with these project files. > Do you you have BYOB/Scratch and NetLogo on your computer? I can send you > example projects Fred and I are working with, and that we used last Spring > '11. > http://byob.berkeley.edu/ > http://ccl.northwestern.edu/netlogo/ > > I'll send you a sample NetLogo program shortly, "spinpolygons" > > Randy **** > > **** > > On Thu, Sep 1, 2011 at 9:37 AM, R.D. Latimer <rdlatimer(a)gmail.com> wrote:* > *** > > These folks are nice with their help... **** > > **** > > On Wed, Aug 31, 2011 at 3:35 PM, Harness, Kathleen <kharness(a)illinois.edu> > wrote:**** > > Randy, > See attached project, I think it is what you are describing. I added a few > comments and a diagram of the angle that does the work. I am familiar with > Scratch and with StarLogo TNG. The EtoysIllinois team is consulting on a > grant at MIT with those software educators to write curriculum that is > parallel from one to the other in a set of projects that introduce > programming to middle and high schools students. It is familiar and alien > territory at the same time, isn't it. > Regards, > Kathleen**** > ------------------------------ > > *From:* R.D. Latimer [rdlatimer(a)gmail.com] > *Sent:* Wednesday, August 31, 2011 11:38 AM > *To:* Harness, Kathleen; Allard, Fred **** > > > *Subject:* Re: [squeakland] More than one input for a script?**** > > **** > > Hi Kathleen, > (I hesitated sending the jpg to all squeakland list) > Here's what I'm trying to do, this is a jpg of the project in BYOB/Scratch > (I can send a link to their page if you need it) > > I think I can duplicate all of this in EToys, except for the need for 2 > inputs - the first is the side length, the second is the number of sides. > So in this example I'm drawing a 12 sided polygon with a length 50 for each > side. > > So I could put a call to this drawPolygon inside of a loop, and change the > number of sides and length of sides, for example randomizing each, and I'd > get pictures of many different kinds of polygons - lengths and numbers of > sides. > > In the Etoys example, this is similar, except the user needs to change > sides and length of sides each time, rather than the program being able to > generate various polygons. > Randy**** > > On Wed, Aug 31, 2011 at 12:09 PM, Harness, Kathleen <kharness(a)illinois.edu> > wrote:**** > > Randy, > Perhaps this project is a partial answer to your questions below: > http://etoysillinois.org/library?sl=1630 > Kathleen**** > ------------------------------ > > *From:* squeakland-bounces(a)squeakland.org [ > squeakland-bounces(a)squeakland.org] on behalf of R.D. Latimer [ > rdlatimer(a)gmail.com] > *Sent:* Wednesday, August 31, 2011 11:01 AM > *To:* squeakland(a)squeakland.org; Allard, Fred > *Subject:* Re: [squeakland] More than one input for a script?**** > > note that drawPolygon should be "turn 360/sides" (below)**** > > On Wed, Aug 31, 2011 at 11:41 AM, R.D. Latimer <rdlatimer(a)gmail.com> > wrote:**** > > I'd like to make a simple drawPolygon script that needs two inputs, one of > length of each side and one for number of sides. > > The basic prototype is: > > drawPolygon (length, sides): > repeat sides > forward length > turn sides/360 <-- turn 360/sides > > With Etoys, It looks like the limit is one input parameter for a script, so > that the script would be limited to: > > drawPolygon (sides): > repeat sides > forward 100 <-- the user would need to hard code the length > of the sides > turn sides/360 > > Can I use more than on numerical input in a script? > > Thanks, > Randy Latimer**** > > **** > > **** > > **** > > **** > > **** > > ** ** >

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squeakland September 2011