Jim, you expressed some important concerns about the direction that public education is taking in the UK. I have been witnessing similar stuff in the last five or so years, when I've been really paying attention, in my own community and in Canada generally. I decided to do what I can for as long as I can. For me the present is just a place holder for the future. So, if I get only part way, maybe others, or even one other will continue along the route. In other words, that I don't reach my destination, doesn't mean I don't travel. I believe you mentioned in an earlier note that you were carrying on lunch hour sessions, or intended to start them, at your school. That would be very helpful for changing things in the U.K. eventually. The power of one can be very strong indeed. In fact, there may not be another like you in the entire UK. That would make you not wrong, but unique:)
Your comments were thought provoking as well, Alan. I'll just add my thoughts on the bookstores/libraries as learning locations. Sure there is learning available in bookstores and libraries, in fact everywhere. However, if I were asked for my preference, I would advocate for libraries because of my individual value system, and on what it is based. I don't remember my parents buying me a single book when I was a child. Not one. However, I started going to the public library with my Dad from the age of three. He sat at a table and read books in Yiddish, and I sat in a chair and read English magazines. Or maybe I thought I was reading... It was a community supported public Jewish library. He had brought the value of using a library for learning from Poland where there were similar places in the town where he lived. When I was five I raced to the neighbourhood library a few blocks from my home to get a card and borrow my own books. I still recall the excitement, and then the disappointment when the librarian informed me that the rule was that I would have to keep the books overnight before coming back for more. My point is there is a value statement in supporting a library rather than a bookstore, or a bookstore rather than a library. I was surprised that your reading list is a bookstore rather than a libarary because I thought you were a strong advocate of public access to books via local public libraries. I'd be interested in hearing more on how you came to deciding on that approach.
Sheine
-----Original Message----- From: Alan Kay [SMTP:Alan.Kay@squeakland.org] Sent: Monday, July 07, 2003 12:44 PM To: Jim Ford; Squeakland Subject: Re: [Squeakland] Squeak 'non-starter' in U.K. schools?
Hi Jim --
At 10:55 AM +0100 7/7/03, Jim Ford wrote:
Hi,
I'm a science technician in a U.K. Independant (non-State) Secondary
School.
I've had experience of several programming languages (including Logo) and when I came accross Squeak became a convert to the concept of it being an excellent learning tool - not only for children, but adults as well.
I've tried introducing Squeak to science teachers, but encountered the problem that I've come across with other ideas I've had, which is: if
it's
not in 'The National Curriculum', it won't get taught.
The US is definitely moving in a similar direction: towards extremely rigid national curricula.
As has been mentioned many times in the U.K. national papers, our schools are so focused on gaining good published examination results - the so-called 'League
Tables' -
(in spite of the protestations of some Head Teachers), that _nothing_ outside 'The Curriculum' has the remotest chance of being taught. The pressure on teaching staff to 'Deliver the Curriculum' is such that
whilst
they may show interest in Squeak, there is not the tiniest slot in the teaching day for it to be introduced.
I believe that as long as the U.K. education system remains tied to the stultifying influence of examination orientated 'League Tables',
innovative
ideas such as Squeak will never be introduced, unless (as is _most_
unlikely)
as officially part of the National Curriculum.
There are various ways to look at this. In the US, it's really a mixed bag, because the "official curricula" are poorly taught and learned, and so, looking on the bright side of things, it's good that important subjects like music, art, and real math and science aren't official and thus don't get ruined for the children. However, I can't quite get myself to be that happy about the current situation, since the names of important and interesting subjects such as math and science are ruined in the children's eyes, and this taint can remain for many years.
When we started this effort many years ago in the 60s -- inspired by Seymour Papert -- pretty much everyone then thought that most gains would be somewhat subversive and outside of formal schooling, and that the advent of personal computers and the Internet (both of which were well underway) would provide something more like nonschool books, libraries, bookstores, etc., from which anyone could learn by themselves and in clubs with others. It is likely that this set of envisioned processes will be what is required -- and to have quite a bit of child to child mentoring -- in order for any real changes to happen in the next decade.
By the way, in the US at least, things would be helped tremendously if scientists and mathematicians were much more strongly involved in elementary schooling (and in clubs etc). This is one of our biggest problems: not enough people who actually understand the real content are involved and want to be involved.
Cheers,
Alan
I would be interested in comments on the above from those involved in the U.K. education system!
Regards: Jim Ford
-- Spam poison - don't use! ---> botulin@watford53.freeserve.co.uk <--- _______________________________________________ Squeakland mailing list Squeakland@squeakland.org http://squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/squeakland
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Hi Sheine --
I didn't actually decide on the bookstore approach to the reading list. The list is many years old (and probably needs updating). The kind folks who volunteered to do the new website took a lot of materials and decided to provide secondary and tertiary links to most of the stuff. I think this helps a lot and provides more depth to the site. The links to amazon are quite helpful even if you don't buy a book, since more can be found out about the books if you are interested. So I think this was a good idea. I find I use amazon about 60% of the time for the same purpose: to find out about a book rather than buy it. Historically, I grew up poor and thus virtually all of my reading was from the free public libraries -- so I'm a big supporter of this way of learning. In particular, I have very fond memories of the wonderfully generous folks at the Queensborough Public Library in Jamaica, Queens, who really went all out to help the young teenage me to find out about things I was interested in. A lot of our interest in making the Internet and keeping Squeak free came from my experiences with free public libraries.
Cheers,
Alan
At 10:56 PM -0400 7/7/03, Mankovsky, Sheine wrote:
Jim, you expressed some important concerns about the direction that public education is taking in the UK. I have been witnessing similar stuff in the last five or so years, when I've been really paying attention, in my own community and in Canada generally. I decided to do what I can for as long as I can. For me the present is just a place holder for the future. So, if I get only part way, maybe others, or even one other will continue along the route. In other words, that I don't reach my destination, doesn't mean I don't travel. I believe you mentioned in an earlier note that you were carrying on lunch hour sessions, or intended to start them, at your school. That would be very helpful for changing things in the U.K. eventually. The power of one can be very strong indeed. In fact, there may not be another like you in the entire UK. That would make you not wrong, but unique:)
Your comments were thought provoking as well, Alan. I'll just add my thoughts on the bookstores/libraries as learning locations. Sure there is learning available in bookstores and libraries, in fact everywhere. However, if I were asked for my preference, I would advocate for libraries because of my individual value system, and on what it is based. I don't remember my parents buying me a single book when I was a child. Not one. However, I started going to the public library with my Dad from the age of three. He sat at a table and read books in Yiddish, and I sat in a chair and read English magazines. Or maybe I thought I was reading... It was a community supported public Jewish library. He had brought the value of using a library for learning from Poland where there were similar places in the town where he lived. When I was five I raced to the neighbourhood library a few blocks from my home to get a card and borrow my own books. I still recall the excitement, and then the disappointment when the librarian informed me that the rule was that I would have to keep the books overnight before coming back for more. My point is there is a value statement in supporting a library rather than a bookstore, or a bookstore rather than a library. I was surprised that your reading list is a bookstore rather than a libarary because I thought you were a strong advocate of public access to books via local public libraries. I'd be interested in hearing more on how you came to deciding on that approach.
Sheine
-----Original Message----- From: Alan Kay [SMTP:Alan.Kay@squeakland.org] Sent: Monday, July 07, 2003 12:44 PM To: Jim Ford; Squeakland Subject: Re: [Squeakland] Squeak 'non-starter' in U.K. schools?
Hi Jim --
At 10:55 AM +0100 7/7/03, Jim Ford wrote:
Hi,
I'm a science technician in a U.K. Independant (non-State) Secondary
School.
I've had experience of several programming languages (including Logo) and when I came accross Squeak became a convert to the concept of it being an excellent learning tool - not only for children, but adults as well.
I've tried introducing Squeak to science teachers, but encountered the problem that I've come across with other ideas I've had, which is: if
it's
not in 'The National Curriculum', it won't get taught.
The US is definitely moving in a similar direction: towards extremely rigid national curricula.
As has been mentioned many times in the U.K. national papers, our schools are so focused on gaining good published examination results - the so-called 'League
Tables' -
(in spite of the protestations of some Head Teachers), that _nothing_ outside 'The Curriculum' has the remotest chance of being taught. The pressure on teaching staff to 'Deliver the Curriculum' is such that
whilst
they may show interest in Squeak, there is not the tiniest slot in the teaching day for it to be introduced.
I believe that as long as the U.K. education system remains tied to the stultifying influence of examination orientated 'League Tables',
innovative
ideas such as Squeak will never be introduced, unless (as is _most_
unlikely)
as officially part of the National Curriculum.
There are various ways to look at this. In the US, it's really a mixed bag, because the "official curricula" are poorly taught and learned, and so, looking on the bright side of things, it's good that important subjects like music, art, and real math and science aren't official and thus don't get ruined for the children. However, I can't quite get myself to be that happy about the current situation, since the names of important and interesting subjects such as math and science are ruined in the children's eyes, and this taint can remain for many years.
When we started this effort many years ago in the 60s -- inspired by Seymour Papert -- pretty much everyone then thought that most gains would be somewhat subversive and outside of formal schooling, and that the advent of personal computers and the Internet (both of which were well underway) would provide something more like nonschool books, libraries, bookstores, etc., from which anyone could learn by themselves and in clubs with others. It is likely that this set of envisioned processes will be what is required -- and to have quite a bit of child to child mentoring -- in order for any real changes to happen in the next decade.
By the way, in the US at least, things would be helped tremendously if scientists and mathematicians were much more strongly involved in elementary schooling (and in clubs etc). This is one of our biggest problems: not enough people who actually understand the real content are involved and want to be involved.
Cheers,
Alan
I would be interested in comments on the above from those involved in the U.K. education system!
Regards: Jim Ford
-- Spam poison - don't use! ---> botulin@watford53.freeserve.co.uk <--- _______________________________________________ Squeakland mailing list Squeakland@squeakland.org http://squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/squeakland
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Mankovsky, Sheine