On 24.06.2010, at 12:29, Ahmed Mansour wrote:

Hello, Is there a way to import a Monticello package from squeaksource into Etoys? because I can not find monticello in etoys image, and is there a special image used by developers?

Yes:

http://etoys.squeak.org/download/

Also, please ask developer questions on the developer's list:

http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys-dev

Thanks.

- Bert -

Hi all,

participance is ramping up again :) We talked about a variety of issue, including

* feature freeze has been extended to this weekend by the Sugar folks: http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/0.90/Roadmap * what changes to include before alpha release * in particular, contributions by Jerome and Ricardo * how to get QuickGuides working

Full log below.

Hope to see you next Monday, at 12 noon Squeakland Time as usual:

http://tinyurl.com/34k9xmx

- Bert -

--> peace (~4613a7e8@hubble.immuexa.com) has joined #etoys <bertf> ah ... jerome? <peace> yep <bertf> nice to see you :) <peace> good to finally get the timing right --> karlram (~51aa9a20@hubble.immuexa.com) has joined #etoys <bertf> you're on Eastern time right? <bertf> Hi Karl <karlram> hi --> Ted_Kaehler (~48c167b2@hubble.immuexa.com) has joined #etoys <peace> 3pm dst <karlram> it's been a slow summer with little etoys work form me <bertf> well, for all of us it seems :) <karlram> :-) <karlram> how was etoys camp <bertf> I have only started again this weekend <karlram> any feedback <bertf> squeakfest was small but nice <karlram> whats left to do before realease ? --> ritaf (~ritaf@mgdb-4db8daa8.pool.mediaWays.net) has joined #etoys *** Mode #etoys +v ritaf by ChanServ <bertf> well, actually bundling up everything <ritaf> hi <bertf> like the translated quickguides <peace> what stage is the release in. Whats frozen? What can be added/fixed? <bertf> ritaf: karlram asked about feedback from Squeakfest <karlram> we add buf fixes <karlram> bug fixes :-) <bertf> peace: no big changes anymore, no new features. it's "feature freeze" <peace> ah/ can that include retargeting of sliders and buttons? <ritaf> karlram: bert told us how to submit bugs, <bertf> peace: yes, that code has long been written so can still get in <ritaf> and the educators want help testing new versions <ritaf> we also talked about Richos work, it would be great to have some of his things in the new version.l <peace> that will be good. it will open up large possibilities. <bertf> peace: also, the freeze is not absolute. if we feel an imporvement is high impact and low risk we can still take it in <bertf> it's just that we should not add big new untested features right until the release is out <peace> Well, the other thing in that category is some patches to the current gif reader <bertf> well bug fixes can get in longer than features <karlram> peace: I added quite a few of your gif fixes <peace> karlram: cool <bertf> peace: we're following the SUagr release cycle, as OLPC is our largest user base: http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/0.90/Roadmap <bertf> s/SUagr/Sugar/ <karlram> peacew:http://tracker.squeakland.org/browse/SQ-597 <bertf> peace: have you tried a current dev version? <bertf> Ted_Kaehler is working on bringing the QuickGuides in <peace> bertf: thats a good question. I think I've downloaded one but not unpacked it. Nor played. <karlram> quickguides will be nice :-) <bertf> peace: at least soem of your stuff is in <peace> it's good to here about the anigif patches. The targeting stuff would be enough for this round. <karlram> ritaf: nice if educators con help test stuff and give suggestions <bertf> I'd like the smooth curves to get in (SQ-211) <ritaf> I was thinking if we should add a link to the beta-version on the downloads page <peace> eventually I would like to see the new anigif stuff get in. With that I can pretty well render most gifs on the web. <ritaf> then anyone can easily find and test the beta-version <bertf> ritaf: yes, once we have it. we're jsut figuring out what needs to be done to make an alpha/beta release <bertf> so far there are only developer versions of 4.1, not for users <karlram> SQ-211 is quite big and a little too late for release ? <bertf> nah, if you look at the roadmap the Sugar folks changed feature freeze to Aug 16 <bertf> That's the enxt weekend <karlram> Ok :-) <bertf> usually people get more active when freezes are over, which is one point of having them ;) <karlram> peace: are you using Monticello now ? <bertf> so we need to collect stuff that has been implemented, and push it. and get all missing bits in place. <peace> for a very few things. My mc-fu is quite small. <karlram> peace: it can grow fast :-) <bertf> peace: we also take changesets, but MC is less work for us <ritaf> did richo put more things in the inbox? we would like tpo have graphing and bubbles in the next version <bertf> yes that's in the onbox <bertf> inbox <ritaf> that's what the educators would like to have <bertf> however, I have not heard feedback from the other developers <bertf> I looked at it and did not like the code very much <peace> the changesets for the targeting stuff exist. <bertf> scottwal: did you have a look? <scottwal> sorry, did not. <bertf> scottwal: the issue I see is that there are a lot of Player subclasses <bertf> basically, a new Player for each new Morph <bertf> do you think that could be a problem down the road? <scottwal> Doesn't Kedama also have a lot of custom Player subclasses? <scottwal> Oh, I see, different issue. <scottwal> It's just the proliferation of uniclasses, "whether needed or not"? <bertf> actual classes <bertf> when a user substitutes a receiver in a script with a different player, it will break. The canonical way is to add the methods to a single player, and then check if the costume is the one you expect. <bertf> we used to have all methods for all different morph just in Player I thought <Ted_Kaehler> Not sure what you mean. <bertf> karlram: have you looked at it by chance? <scottwal> yes, except for KedamaExamplerPlayer, KedamaTurtleVectorPlayer etc. <bertf> Ted_Kaehler: when you use a tile specific to say Sketch and then change the receiver to a Holder it will still work <bertf> because all tile methods are implemented in Player <Ted_Kaehler> A holder containing a sketch? <bertf> no. just replaceing the receiver tile with some other player <scottwal> so certainly we've always strived to have a "single root player class" rather than custom explicit Player subclasses, for just the reason Bert says... <Ted_Kaehler> yes, as long as the methods are really in Player. <scottwal> Does Dr Geo have idiosyncratic Player subclasses <scottwal> ? -*- bertf looks <bertf> scottwal: no, it adds methods to Player <scottwal> so unless there's a good reason in the code in question to have Player subclasses, probably it's better not to. <bertf> There are only two non-Kedama Player subclasses specific to a Morph <scottwal> (However, the "power of working code" might be a good reason.) <bertf> that's CardPlayer (for stacks I assume) and Component (Fabrik?) <scottwal> right. both of them dead ends... <bertf> but they had good reasons to extend the Player model <scottwal> yes <bertf> to subclass it I mean <scottwal> right <bertf> in Richo's code I don't see a good reason. <bertf> guess I;ll have to send an email :) <bertf> also, he added #to: <scottwal> #to: to what? <bertf> Point <bertf> which could have any number of meanings IMHO <scottwal> and which meaning did he implement? <peace> bertf: does it mean the difference between two points? <bertf> I'll have to look again, sec <bertf> no, it creates an instance of Vector <scottwal> yikes <bertf> which is a new class jsut holding two points. then there is a VectorMorph as subclass of PolygonMorph <bertf> used for line segments in charts I think <bertf> the points on a chart are a SketchMorph subclass <bertf> so there is a PointMorph and a PointPlayer. IMHO it's better to just use exostign classes <scottwal> bertf: your advice about coding is always graciously given and always well taken. <peace> bertf: PointMorph is an important missing concept. <bertf> too bad we did not really point out the implementaion flaws earlier <Ted_Kaehler> about Quickguides... <bertf> peace: how so? <scottwal> is it really too late? <bertf> scottwal: no, but because nobody complained, he used this style throughout his work <bertf> Ted_Kaehler: yes? <peace> bertf: things get built out of points, Morph skiped that and started with rectangles. Bug abound. <Ted_Kaehler> I have etoys-dev 2379, Jun2010, then fully updated, and Quickguides do not work. <Ted_Kaehler> The index page shows, but no buttons work there. <Ted_Kaehler> It may be the new index translating code. <Ted_Kaehler> Any hints before I plunge in to find out what is wrong? <bertf> Ted_Kaehler: I get an error in makeCategoryMenu: <Ted_Kaehler> yes. <bertf> Ted_Kaehler: but I have not looked deeply yet <bertf> PagesForCategory should have been filled <Ted_Kaehler> yes. <bertf> maybe because the index.txt is missing? <Ted_Kaehler> that's a good hint. <peace> bertf: meant bugs abound. From the center handle never staying in place to poor bounds tracking for tilted morphs. <Ted_Kaehler> Is there one available, or do I need to create it? <bertf> OTOH neither buildDefaultIndex nor loadIndex is called <bertf> peace: agreed. though that's not what Richo's PointMorph is about <Ted_Kaehler> those may be at prep-time only. <bertf> Ted_Kaehler: I think you need to make it yourself <bertf> I hope Korakurider will chime in soonish :) <Ted_Kaehler> yes <peace> bertf: yes. But iirc Ricoh was making something work in its own domain. So he made stuff for that. Integrating into the general system is now the problem. <bertf> peace: precisely <bertf> I'll also point out that for general inclusion, GSoC is not a good class name prefix <bertf> also, some more stuff is sitting in the inbox <bertf> like my timer code <bertf> and a morph drop handler <bertf> and karlram's world geometry tiles <bertf> any opinion on these? <Ted_Kaehler> Is there an easy way to make all fonts smaller in the dev image? <bertf> Ted_Kaehler: I guess you want to disable screen scaling, and then there is a doit, let me check <bertf> hmm, no. you could change the sizes in restoreDefaultFonts and execute the doit <Ted_Kaehler> no scaling helped. <Ted_Kaehler> There sure seems to be some code missing for the Guides. How did this get in with no testing? <bertf> we are abut to test now <bertf> about <Ted_Kaehler> ok. certainly buildDefaultIndex needs to be called. I'll be quiet now and see what I can do. <bertf> no need to be quiet, but thank you for looking into it :) <bertf> karlram: did you look at the Camera code by chance? --> hilaire (~hilaire@bon74-1-88-184-136-97.fbx.proxad.net) has joined #etoys <bertf> well, okay. let's continue by email. Thanks everybody for stopping by! See you next week, same time! <hilaire> ah, just in time <bertf> hilaire: hey, what's up? :) <hilaire> not mutch <hilaire> Arriving at the end :) <bertf> did you get any more feedback on your xo bundle? <hilaire> not directly to the bundle <hilaire> but a math teacher involved in XO for Philippine contacted me <hilaire> just to say thank you <hilaire> John Sincak <bertf> nice :) <Ted_Kaehler> Execute (QuickGuideMorph buildDefaultIndex), then open the guides, and they work. <bertf> hilaire: do you think you could make an example project for us explaining a bit about Dr Geo? <hilaire> The work on DrGeo with a feature complete UI was really badly need, and I am glad I did it. <bertf> yes, looking forward to have that in etoys too :) <bertf> Ted_Kaehler: the english ones I guess. All of them? <hilaire> bertf: I can, but someone else should do it. I don't mean people from Squeakland, but people already using it. <bertf> hilaire: if you get someone else to do it, sure. must be MIT though, not GPL <hilaire> I see in the web use cases of DrGeo in south america, but when I ask feedback I receive none. <bertf> that's the same everywhere <ritaf> hilaire: the feedback is always a problem <bertf> are you using Firefox? <ritaf> hilaire: do you remember names of people using it? <hilaire> the people should get educated to feedback and giving back also <hilaire> ritaf: no, I saw in a page a big poster full of DrGeo use case <bertf> Anyone using Firefox should give the Firefox developers feedback. Few do. <hilaire> ritaf: http://community.ofset.org/index.php/File:Drgeo-ceilbal1.jpg <hilaire> ritaf: it is from ceibal <ritaf> this is ceibal, I'll ask Carlos <hilaire> ritaf: yes, I am curious

Hi all,

I've been lazy in posting chat logs, sorry about that. I did ask the Sugarlabs folks to log the etoys channel too, though, so it might appear on http://jita.sugarlabs.org/ soonish ...

Anyway, we had a good discussion today, it helped that this Monday was a holiday in some places :)

We talked about:

* the upcoming release in general, which looks good, no blockers that are not easy to fix: http://tracker.squeakland.org/secure/IssueNavigator.jspa?mode=hide&reque... * however, we discovered some issues with the windows installer * also, copy&paste of images

We should build a release candidate this week. That leaves us 2 weeks for testing before the actual release on Sep 27.

Full log below.

Hope to see you next Monday, at 12 noon Squeakland Time as usual:

http://tinyurl.com/3ypbo2c

- Bert -

<bander> hi <jecel> hello --> CaseyR (~caseyr@166.205.143.29) has joined #etoys <kencausey> Hi <bertf> hi <bertf> nice to see you all :) <bander> holiday :-) <CaseyR> How's the release coming? <bertf> we're a few days away from the first release candidate <bertf> no blockers at the moment <CaseyR> Right on! <bertf> bugs yes, but well :) <CaseyR> Heh <CaseyR> Aren't there always. <jecel> It is a holiday in Brazil as well (tomorrow, actually) so no class for me today <bertf> awesome. I figured someone might stop by :) <CaseyR> I'm loose of work, too:) <bertf> actually there are two blockers, but they are trivial to fix <bertf> http://tracker.squeakland.org/secure/IssueNavigator.jspa?mode=hide&reque... <bertf> so no real obstacle to the release <bander> Do you need help with any of these? <bertf> looking ... <saijanai_> is squekland.org server down? <bertf> saijanai_: no, but I see only half of its contents <bertf> http://squeakland.org/ <kencausey> Who is responsible for that site now? <CaseyR> Looks like it's restarting to me. <bertf> bander: http://tracker.squeakland.org/browse/SQ-779 or http://tracker.squeakland.org/browse/SQ-778 look interesting and would be nice to have fixed <bertf> kencausey: still Immuexa / Tim Falconer <kencausey> ok <bertf> bander: incidentally, does copy/pasting images work under Windows? I never checked I think <bander> Not that I know of <bertf> bander: I though we had the ExtendedClipboardPlugin on Windows too <bander> It's not in http://squeakvm.org/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/trunk/platforms/win32/plugins/ <bander> Where would it be if not there? <bertf> maybe I misremember. It works on Mac and Unix. <bertf> hmm, Sophie surely supported it <bander> Probably all FFI hacks <kencausey> What is meant by 'copy and paste images'? What sort of image do we mean? <bander> Graphics <bertf> kencausey: bitmaps <kencausey> OK <kencausey> I think drag and drop works on Windows <bertf> kencausey: on the Mac I can get the halo on any object, type Cmd-C, switch apps and paste <kencausey> ah, so images out of Squeak... <bertf> and into, too. webbroser - copy - squeak - paste <bander> Yes, DnD of images works fine, but not C&P -*- bander is on a very slow connection it seems <bertf> on unix we can even drag objects out of squeak :) <bertf> used to work anyway, haven't checked in a while <bertf> so I don't know about C&P on Windows, I don't see a plugin in Sophie either. maybe they used FFI <bertf> another issues to work on would be loading fonts from file to make the image smaller, but I think it's too late for that in the release cycle <bertf> the code is in but not used yet <bander> Did you see my post in the trunk? <bertf> yes, was glad to see it :) <bertf> bander: testing the windows installer would be great too <bertf> http://etoys.squeak.org/download/ <bertf> it's only for alpha 1 so not the latest image but maybe check if you see something odd <bander> Will do but I can only run it on Win7; I don't have anything earlier. <bertf> as well as the beta-to-go which includes a windows VM too <bertf> bander: understood <bertf> korakurider did that one, hopefully it works :) <bertf> so the best thing if you want to help would be testing the beta <bertf> and see if anything terrible happens ;) <bander> I don't see an installer at http://etoys.squeak.org/download/ <bertf> the zip file with "win" in its name? <bertf> first one <bander> Oh, sorry. Was looking for something called "installer" :-) <bertf> ah. but zip is okay? <bander> I'll let you know once I downloaded it :-) -*- bertf doesn't know zilch about windows conventions <bertf> I did not have time yet to build a Mac installer <bertf> and for the linux distros other people are packaging it as part of Sugar :) <bander> bertf: The installer shouldn't be wrapped inside a zip; it should either be the .exe for the download or the .msi <bertf> okay <bertf> is it just ine file inside? <bander> Yup. <bander> EToysInstaller.exe <bertf> I see <bertf> capital T? <bander> Installer shows Apache-L only? <bander> No, lower-case t, i.e., EtoysInstaller.exe <bertf> ah, good :) --> scottwal (~scottwal@99-40-5-235.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net) has joined #etoys <bander> Seems to launch fine <bertf> should probably show http://etoys.squeak.org/svn/trunk/Etoys/NOTICE instead? <bander> Hm... <bander> Every time I launch it recomputes security keys; then has some flash of "PrimitiveFailed" <bertf> ugh, bad <bander> Fails to create a directory <bertf> cmd-shift-w <bertf> go back to top project <bander> fullPath: 'C:\Program Files (x86)\Etoys\Resources\andreas' <bertf> that does not look right <bertf> should be in home dir <bander> Looks like it's trying to write something into the installation directory <bertf> so secure directory is not set correctly <bander> Yes, looks like it; where is this stored? <bertf> don't know really :( <bertf> whereever apps store preferences? <bertf> you might try tghe Etoys 4 installer, this should use the same dirs <bander> In the registry? ;-) <bertf> argh, website bad http://squeakland.org/download/ <bertf> bander: no, cache files etc <bander> Okay, this is officially weird. <bander> I have *both* Etoys.exe as well as Etoys.app in C:\Program Files (x86)\Etoys <kencausey> \Documents and Settings{user}\Application Data? <bander> I.e., it looks like a complete duplicate install <bertf> FileWrite $0 "SecureDirectory=$"%APPDATA%\etoys$"$\r$\n" <bertf> FileWrite $0 "SecureDirectory=$"%USERPROFILE%\AppData\LocalLow\etoys$"$\r$\n" <bander> Let me try this from first principles, perhaps I had a version installed and it didn't like installing it on top of the prior version <bertf> those two lines are in the installer script <kencausey> LocalLow? <bander> I don't see an Etoys.ini anywhere <bertf> kencausey: may refer to vista security levels? I really have no idea though <bander> Yes, it does. The location is fine. <bander> There's just no Etoys.ini anywhere <bertf> bander: no idea. I dimly remember some discussion a tyear a go but didn't pay attention <bander> Yeah, the problem is clearly the missing Etoys.ini in the install. <bertf> okay <bander> And it doesn't like installing on top of a prior install. <bertf> it should leave the old install alone and install to an etoys41 folder <bertf> redirect the browser plugin to the new location of course <bertf> but otherwise keep the old working <bander> It did not install into etoys41; it installed into C:\Program Files (x86)\Etoys (where I already had an install) <bertf> well, Korakurider will read the log and respond I'm sure <bander> Then for the records: This is Win7 <bertf> yes we haven't really discussed what the behavior should be wrt the old versions <bertf> but I think not touching the old is better <bertf> on the mac it's going to be an "Etoys 4.1" folder <bertf> here's the old windows7 thread http://lists.squeakland.org/pipermail/etoys-dev/2009-March/003037.html <-- bander (~437d16b1@hubble.immuexa.com) has quit (Quit: CGI:IRC (Ping timeout)) <bertf> well, thanks for testing! and thanks to everyone who came by here today :)