I received a reply on another mailing list from a person who appears to have installed and briefly tried squeak, but had some negative comments. I was wondering if others here could comment on his reply about squeak and I'll condense a msg to him and send it out to the mailing list.
The original msg was a request (from someone else) asking about audio software for children - the thread also included general software for children.
Here's his short msg:
=== Just installed it. A very creative but frustrating package. As with too many of these things, one must be able to read and that in English (or a few European languages?). Fine print abounds in what at first looks like a very sparse UI.
The program abounds with objects and widgets. Some very creative and versatile, others frustratingly crude. Graphic objects like squares cannot be resized (nothing stops one from reprogramming them and then dutifully uploading the scalable versions for others to enjoy--smalltalk was once the rage.)
Smalltalk 80 is, well, 26 years old. Before Unicode so is incompatable with mutlingual keyboard choices. No Hebrew for my daughter, not in UI and cannot type it in to text objects either. Truetype fonts (newer than smalltalk80) are beatutiful but they are also Unicode based nowadays.
I think most kids would enjoy trying various widgets but run out of patience doing anything more with them. Most adults would as well.
What would be really helpful is some tutorial projects that are downloaded right with the etoys installation. That is what we're doing with the OLPC version, for which we also are working on better language rendering support.
The OLPC etoys version should run fine on any machine. But making the example projects appear in the general projects list requires some work, and making the font choices configurable (they are set up for a 200 dpi screen now) would also be necessary. A plan of action would be for someone to make a nice general etoys package from that version:
http://etoys.laptop.org/src/etoys-image-and-pr.zip
Or rather from the etoys-dev image which includes source files at
We (VPRI hackers) can certainly assist with that, though our main focus is the actual kid's machine right now.
- Bert -
On Dec 11, 2006, at 7:39 , Brad Fuller wrote:
I received a reply on another mailing list from a person who appears to have installed and briefly tried squeak, but had some negative comments. I was wondering if others here could comment on his reply about squeak and I'll condense a msg to him and send it out to the mailing list.
The original msg was a request (from someone else) asking about audio software for children - the thread also included general software for children.
Here's his short msg:
=== Just installed it. A very creative but frustrating package. As with too many of these things, one must be able to read and that in English (or a few European languages?). Fine print abounds in what at first looks like a very sparse UI.
The program abounds with objects and widgets. Some very creative and versatile, others frustratingly crude. Graphic objects like squares cannot be resized (nothing stops one from reprogramming them and then dutifully uploading the scalable versions for others to enjoy-- smalltalk was once the rage.)
Smalltalk 80 is, well, 26 years old. Before Unicode so is incompatable with mutlingual keyboard choices. No Hebrew for my daughter, not in UI and cannot type it in to text objects either. Truetype fonts (newer than smalltalk80) are beatutiful but they are also Unicode based nowadays.
I think most kids would enjoy trying various widgets but run out of patience doing anything more with them. Most adults would as well.
--
Bert Freudenberg wrote:
What would be really helpful is some tutorial projects that are downloaded right with the etoys installation. That is what we're doing with the OLPC version, for which we also are working on better language rendering support.
The OLPC etoys version should run fine on any machine. But making the example projects appear in the general projects list requires some work, and making the font choices configurable (they are set up for a 200 dpi screen now) would also be necessary. A plan of action would be for someone to make a nice general etoys package from that version:
http://etoys.laptop.org/src/etoys-image-and-pr.zipOr rather from the etoys-dev image which includes source files at
http://tinlizzie.org/olpc/We (VPRI hackers) can certainly assist with that, though our main focus is the actual kid's machine right now.
I did mention they could easily download OLPC etoys using yum. I will reiterate this fact. BTW, is there anything specific to FC5? That is, can other distros dnl from the repo and execute OLPC etoys?
thanks for your help!
brad
On Dec 11, 2006, at 9:42 , Brad Fuller wrote:
Bert Freudenberg wrote:
What would be really helpful is some tutorial projects that are downloaded right with the etoys installation. That is what we're doing with the OLPC version, for which we also are working on better language rendering support. The OLPC etoys version should run fine on any machine. But making the example projects appear in the general projects list requires some work, and making the font choices configurable (they are set up for a 200 dpi screen now) would also be necessary. A plan of action would be for someone to make a nice general etoys package from that version: http://etoys.laptop.org/src/etoys-image-and-pr.zip Or rather from the etoys-dev image which includes source files at http://tinlizzie.org/olpc/ We (VPRI hackers) can certainly assist with that, though our main focus is the actual kid's machine right now.
I did mention they could easily download OLPC etoys using yum. I will reiterate this fact. BTW, is there anything specific to FC5? That is, can other distros dnl from the repo and execute OLPC etoys?
I don't think there is nothing FC5 specific in there. You can run Etoys outside of Sugar by typing "etoys" on the command line.
- Bert -
On Dec 11, 2006, at 9:50 , Bert Freudenberg wrote:
On Dec 11, 2006, at 9:42 , Brad Fuller wrote:
Bert Freudenberg wrote:
What would be really helpful is some tutorial projects that are downloaded right with the etoys installation. That is what we're doing with the OLPC version, for which we also are working on better language rendering support. The OLPC etoys version should run fine on any machine. But making the example projects appear in the general projects list requires some work, and making the font choices configurable (they are set up for a 200 dpi screen now) would also be necessary. A plan of action would be for someone to make a nice general etoys package from that version: http://etoys.laptop.org/src/etoys-image-and-pr.zip Or rather from the etoys-dev image which includes source files at http://tinlizzie.org/olpc/ We (VPRI hackers) can certainly assist with that, though our main focus is the actual kid's machine right now.
I did mention they could easily download OLPC etoys using yum. I will reiterate this fact. BTW, is there anything specific to FC5? That is, can other distros dnl from the repo and execute OLPC etoys?
I don't think there is nothing FC5 specific in there. You can run Etoys outside of Sugar by typing "etoys" on the command line.
That should have been "I don't think there is anything". Or "I think there is nothing".
- Bert -
Hi,
I have developped V-toys a visual programming language built with E-TOYS and compatible with them.
V-toys is using tiles with icones instead of text.
So it is international and understandable in any language and project can be shared esily.
I have translatede the car project which is the v-toys version of the car piloted by the joystick http://ofset.org:8000/super/213
You'll find more documentation here http://community.ofset.org/wiki/V-toys
Sorry, the documentation is in french but there are lot of pictures and many projects that you can download and try.Be carefull when you save a project, ever stay down on the publish button to get the menu and choose publish on a different server.
If you just hit Publish, the project will be saved back on the server. In this case, immediately hit atlt/dot or apple/dot to stop the process.
Regards -------- Message d'origine-------- De: squeakland-bounces@squeakland.org de la part de Bert Freudenberg Date: lun. 11/12/2006 19:00 À: The general-purpose Squeak developers list Cc: squeakland@squeakland.org Objet : Re: [Squeakland] Help needed on reply about squeak
On Dec 11, 2006, at 9:50 , Bert Freudenberg wrote:
On Dec 11, 2006, at 9:42 , Brad Fuller wrote:
Bert Freudenberg wrote:
What would be really helpful is some tutorial projects that are downloaded right with the etoys installation. That is what we're doing with the OLPC version, for which we also are working on better language rendering support. The OLPC etoys version should run fine on any machine. But making the example projects appear in the general projects list requires some work, and making the font choices configurable (they are set up for a 200 dpi screen now) would also be necessary. A plan of action would be for someone to make a nice general etoys package from that version: http://etoys.laptop.org/src/etoys-image-and-pr.zip Or rather from the etoys-dev image which includes source files at http://tinlizzie.org/olpc/ We (VPRI hackers) can certainly assist with that, though our main focus is the actual kid's machine right now.
I did mention they could easily download OLPC etoys using yum. I will reiterate this fact. BTW, is there anything specific to FC5? That is, can other distros dnl from the repo and execute OLPC etoys?
I don't think there is nothing FC5 specific in there. You can run Etoys outside of Sugar by typing "etoys" on the command line.
That should have been "I don't think there is anything". Or "I think there is nothing".
- Bert -
_______________________________________________ Squeakland mailing list Squeakland@squeakland.org http://squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/squeakland
Thanks, I'll pass your msg along.
Dreyfuss Pierre-André (EDU) wrote:
Hi,
I have developped V-toys a visual programming language built with E-TOYS and compatible with them.
V-toys is using tiles with icones instead of text.
So it is international and understandable in any language and project can be shared esily.
I have translatede the car project which is the v-toys version of the car piloted by the joystick http://ofset.org:8000/super/213
You'll find more documentation here http://community.ofset.org/wiki/V-toys
Sorry, the documentation is in french but there are lot of pictures and many projects that you can download and try.Be carefull when you save a project, ever stay down on the publish button to get the menu and choose publish on a different server.
If you just hit Publish, the project will be saved back on the server. In this case, immediately hit atlt/dot or apple/dot to stop the process.
Regards -------- Message d'origine-------- De: squeakland-bounces@squeakland.org de la part de Bert Freudenberg Date: lun. 11/12/2006 19:00 À: The general-purpose Squeak developers list Cc: squeakland@squeakland.org Objet : Re: [Squeakland] Help needed on reply about squeak
On Dec 11, 2006, at 9:50 , Bert Freudenberg wrote:
On Dec 11, 2006, at 9:42 , Brad Fuller wrote:
Bert Freudenberg wrote:
What would be really helpful is some tutorial projects that are downloaded right with the etoys installation. That is what we're doing with the OLPC version, for which we also are working on better language rendering support. The OLPC etoys version should run fine on any machine. But making the example projects appear in the general projects list requires some work, and making the font choices configurable (they are set up for a 200 dpi screen now) would also be necessary. A plan of action would be for someone to make a nice general etoys package from that version: http://etoys.laptop.org/src/etoys-image-and-pr.zip Or rather from the etoys-dev image which includes source files at http://tinlizzie.org/olpc/ We (VPRI hackers) can certainly assist with that, though our main focus is the actual kid's machine right now.
I did mention they could easily download OLPC etoys using yum. I will reiterate this fact. BTW, is there anything specific to FC5? That is, can other distros dnl from the repo and execute OLPC etoys?
I don't think there is nothing FC5 specific in there. You can run Etoys outside of Sugar by typing "etoys" on the command line.
That should have been "I don't think there is anything". Or "I think there is nothing".
- Bert -
Squeakland mailing list Squeakland@squeakland.org http://squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/squeakland
Hi --
We could use lots more documentation in lots more languages most certainly. It would be nice to have all the writing systems of the world available and usable (the OLPC machine will probably force us to do that).
I think he missed the book "Powerful Ideas in the Classroom" which would give him a start with his daughter (and for himself). Etoys is not at all about widgets, just the opposite. He also seems to have missed the tutorials that are on the website.
I don't understand the comment, "squares aren't resizable".
He should be encouraged to try a little harder.
Cheers,
Alan
At 07:39 AM 12/11/2006, Brad Fuller wrote:
I received a reply on another mailing list from a person who appears to have installed and briefly tried squeak, but had some negative comments. I was wondering if others here could comment on his reply about squeak and I'll condense a msg to him and send it out to the mailing list.
The original msg was a request (from someone else) asking about audio software for children - the thread also included general software for children.
Here's his short msg:
=== Just installed it. A very creative but frustrating package. As with too many of these things, one must be able to read and that in English (or a few European languages?). Fine print abounds in what at first looks like a very sparse UI.
The program abounds with objects and widgets. Some very creative and versatile, others frustratingly crude. Graphic objects like squares cannot be resized (nothing stops one from reprogramming them and then dutifully uploading the scalable versions for others to enjoy--smalltalk was once the rage.)
Smalltalk 80 is, well, 26 years old. Before Unicode so is incompatable with mutlingual keyboard choices. No Hebrew for my daughter, not in UI and cannot type it in to text objects either. Truetype fonts (newer than smalltalk80) are beatutiful but they are also Unicode based nowadays.
I think most kids would enjoy trying various widgets but run out of patience doing anything more with them. Most adults would as well.
--
Squeakland mailing list Squeakland@squeakland.org http://squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/squeakland
Re "squares aren't resizable" I guess he hasn't even discovered halos, yet. Without them, etoys indeed is pretty hard to use ;)
- Bert -
On Dec 11, 2006, at 8:52 , Alan Kay wrote:
Hi --
We could use lots more documentation in lots more languages most certainly. It would be nice to have all the writing systems of the world available and usable (the OLPC machine will probably force us to do that).
I think he missed the book "Powerful Ideas in the Classroom" which would give him a start with his daughter (and for himself). Etoys is not at all about widgets, just the opposite. He also seems to have missed the tutorials that are on the website.
I don't understand the comment, "squares aren't resizable".
He should be encouraged to try a little harder.
Cheers,
Alan
At 07:39 AM 12/11/2006, Brad Fuller wrote:
I received a reply on another mailing list from a person who appears to have installed and briefly tried squeak, but had some negative comments. I was wondering if others here could comment on his reply about squeak and I'll condense a msg to him and send it out to the mailing list.
The original msg was a request (from someone else) asking about audio software for children - the thread also included general software for children.
Here's his short msg:
=== Just installed it. A very creative but frustrating package. As with too many of these things, one must be able to read and that in English (or a few European languages?). Fine print abounds in what at first looks like a very sparse UI.
The program abounds with objects and widgets. Some very creative and versatile, others frustratingly crude. Graphic objects like squares cannot be resized (nothing stops one from reprogramming them and then dutifully uploading the scalable versions for others to enjoy-- smalltalk was once the rage.)
Smalltalk 80 is, well, 26 years old. Before Unicode so is incompatable with mutlingual keyboard choices. No Hebrew for my daughter, not in UI and cannot type it in to text objects either. Truetype fonts (newer than smalltalk80) are beatutiful but they are also Unicode based nowadays.
I think most kids would enjoy trying various widgets but run out of patience doing anything more with them. Most adults would as well.
--
Squeakland mailing list Squeakland@squeakland.org http://squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/squeakland
Alan Kay wrote:
Hi --
We could use lots more documentation in lots more languages most certainly. It would be nice to have all the writing systems of the world available and usable (the OLPC machine will probably force us to do that).
I don't know much about Unicode and the multi-language support in squeak. I was hoping that someone knowledgeable in this area could give me a link or clue as to where to look so I could prepare a proper response to his concerns. Especially if someone has a Hebrew version.
I think he missed the book "Powerful Ideas in the Classroom" which would give him a start with his daughter (and for himself). Etoys is not at all about widgets, just the opposite. He also seems to have missed the tutorials that are on the website.
I'll point to the tutorials on squeakland and also to the book (which I think is a great start for teachers.)
I don't understand the comment, "squares aren't resizable".
I assumed he was speaking of a morphic object and I was going to point him to the use of halos.
Alan has a reply in Nov to Offray Cárdenas, of which excerpts will be helpful. I'm not an educator so any other assistance would much obliged .
Thanks for your help.
brad
He should be encouraged to try a little harder.
Cheers,
Alan
At 07:39 AM 12/11/2006, Brad Fuller wrote:
I received a reply on another mailing list from a person who appears to have installed and briefly tried squeak, but had some negative comments. I was wondering if others here could comment on his reply about squeak and I'll condense a msg to him and send it out to the mailing list.
The original msg was a request (from someone else) asking about audio software for children - the thread also included general software for children.
Here's his short msg:
=== Just installed it. A very creative but frustrating package. As with too many of these things, one must be able to read and that in English (or a few European languages?). Fine print abounds in what at first looks like a very sparse UI.
The program abounds with objects and widgets. Some very creative and versatile, others frustratingly crude. Graphic objects like squares cannot be resized (nothing stops one from reprogramming them and then dutifully uploading the scalable versions for others to enjoy--smalltalk was once the rage.)
Smalltalk 80 is, well, 26 years old. Before Unicode so is incompatable with mutlingual keyboard choices. No Hebrew for my daughter, not in UI and cannot type it in to text objects either. Truetype fonts (newer than smalltalk80) are beatutiful but they are also Unicode based nowadays.
I think most kids would enjoy trying various widgets but run out of patience doing anything more with them. Most adults would as well.
Brad Fuller wrote:
Alan Kay wrote:
Hi --
We could use lots more documentation in lots more languages most certainly. It would be nice to have all the writing systems of the world available and usable (the OLPC machine will probably force us to do that).
I don't know much about Unicode and the multi-language support in squeak. I was hoping that someone knowledgeable in this area could give me a link or clue as to where to look so I could prepare a proper response to his concerns. Especially if someone has a Hebrew version.
I found multilingual info on the swiki, as well has truetype font usage. And have sent the reply. I didn't find any links about Hebrew, though. If anyone knows, I'll pass it along.
thanks for your help! brad
squeakland@lists.squeakfoundation.org
-
Alan Kay -
Bert Freudenberg -
Brad Fuller -
Dreyfuss Pierre-André (EDU)