Dear Kim and all Squeakers,
First and foremost, congratulations on your new book! As a father of a 6 year old child, I am looking for new ways to stimulate my child. I have been an active "reader" member of this list, though this is the first time I participate.
I would like to know whether a 6 year old is too young to Squeak, if your book is intended for that age also or if there is another platform aside Squeak more appropriate for that age range.
I have downloaded Squeak (3.5 I believe) both in an old Mac and a PC. To tell you the truth, I did opened it but I have not found the time to dedicate time to learn it (my country sucks for that matter, at least nowadays). What I only did was browse it. Though browsing it I found it a little bit daunting for my child and maybe for myself.
I was particularly interested in the whole discussion regarding levels ala HyperCard and the different point of views. Regarding metaphors as a whole new way of programming I do not have yet a point made up in my mind. What I can say is that Icons and English may work well to the native speakers of the language, but to kids like my child it would mean that he has another hindrance in this case the Language.
I am from Uruguay (we speak Spanish) and although I am literate and fluent in English and my child is going to a School where he learns English not as a second language but as a first language, still we are not getting to the mass and to be truthful I find this (in my heart) not democratic enough.
On the other hand I am not so sure that porting a language (computer language) from one language to another (for example English to Spanish) is the right choice. As an example when I see formulas of Excel in Spanish where my mind is accustomed to see them in English, I simply hate them. I cannot imagine an if clause (if, then, else) in another language nor a loop sentence.
But I can imagine tying up in a more graphical way bits of code instead of doing so abstractly. I remember a recent answer that produce Alan Kay recently regarding something similar, it was to learning music and he considered that the key is not simplifying everything but learning the nature of music itself (instead of painting it). I agree with that, but I would like to point out two things in this respect. One, is that music has a language (notation) completely different of any language (spoken or written for that matter), specific, fast and appropriate. But on the other hand, from what I recall when I was young, in the US I saw another method that used (a, b, c, d) instead of the regular one that simplified the reading and learning of music specially for youngsters. So this brings me back to the concept of Hypercard.
Please mind if I went a little too far, and mind for my English and not having the words nor the concepts to make myself clear enough.
I do enjoy the discussions that take place in this list. And for one thing, I believe that the true nature of democracy will only arrive, not when we all have a roof and food, but when all have the chance to have the same education and knowledge, but not in a some abstract form but in a true, active way. For this, I believe Squeak, being free, aside of how It may evolve or revolutionize in this bright present and promising future, has the true nature of democracy.
Thanks,
Daniel
PS: Sorry if I got too emotional on the whole matter, I am specially worried about my country, about the differences that really exist that keep us apart (inside my country and outside), and about the future of our children as a hole. I truly believe that children have the right to learn joyfully and that they entitled to have a future in its broadest meaning, and that we are responsible for that.
Maybe I just may go to a Shrink :-)
-- Hello, Squeakers!
If word has not made it your way, I am delighted to inform you that the Etoy project book I created with BJ Conn is now published and available!
It can be ordered directly from Squeakland.org and specifically at http://squeakland.org/sqmedia/sqmediahome.html
Thanks to those of you who provided feedback on early drafts and tested projects along the way.
We hope you find the book of value and will share this news with other teachers, parents and students. Have fun Squeaking!!!
-- Kim _______________________________________________ Squeakland mailing list Squeakland@squeakland.org http://squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/squeakland
Daniel Vareika Diseñador Industrial
DISEÑOS :: VAREIKA
: Productos : Imagen : Hábitat :
Ramon Massini 3415 - 705 CP II.300 Montevideo - Uruguay TeleFax (598-2) 707 9005
[ dvareika@redfacil.com.uy ]
Dear Daniel - Thanks for your good wishes, support and interest! Let me attempt to answer [some of] your questions.
1) It is quite possible that you can play with Squeak -- the Etoy component of the system -- *with* your 6 year old. (Alan has a term called "lapware" for software that is most suited for use by a young child and adult.) Our book may give you some ideas, but the projects there are mostly geared to 8 - 14 year olds. We are sure many parents and teachers might look at our examples and think of their own, adapted to a variety of content/learning areas and for different age learners.
2) I urge you to download Squeak from SQUEAKLAND.org as opposed to the squeak.org site. We keep the "Squeakland" version as stable as possible where the image updated/maintained on the other site is more experimental and changing. Our project book assumes people will be playing with the Squeak downloaded from "Squeakland".
You may have seen that our colleaguel, Diego Gomez-Deck is working hard on a Spanish version -- I encourage you to visit his "small land" site if you have not.
I will ask others in the community to comment on a "multi-lingual" Squeak and what might be "best" or suitable for learners... It is great you are enjoying the discussions on this list and contributing -- thank you!! There is no need to apologize for your emotion or passion in your beliefs -- I think this is common among us. Let's keep the discussion going, thanks, Kim
At 1:28 PM -0300 8/26/03, Daniel Vareika wrote:
Dear Kim and all Squeakers,
First and foremost, congratulations on your new book! As a father of a 6 year old child, I am looking for new ways to stimulate my child. I have been an active "reader" member of this list, though this is the first time I participate.
I would like to know whether a 6 year old is too young to Squeak, if your book is intended for that age also or if there is another platform aside Squeak more appropriate for that age range.
I have downloaded Squeak (3.5 I believe) both in an old Mac and a PC. To tell you the truth, I did opened it but I have not found the time to dedicate time to learn it (my country sucks for that matter, at least nowadays). What I only did was browse it. Though browsing it I found it a little bit daunting for my child and maybe for myself.
I was particularly interested in the whole discussion regarding levels ala HyperCard and the different point of views. Regarding metaphors as a whole new way of programming I do not have yet a point made up in my mind. What I can say is that Icons and English may work well to the native speakers of the language, but to kids like my child it would mean that he has another hindrance in this case the Language.
I am from Uruguay (we speak Spanish) and although I am literate and fluent in English and my child is going to a School where he learns English not as a second language but as a first language, still we are not getting to the mass and to be truthful I find this (in my heart) not democratic enough.
On the other hand I am not so sure that porting a language (computer language) from one language to another (for example English to Spanish) is the right choice. As an example when I see formulas of Excel in Spanish where my mind is accustomed to see them in English, I simply hate them. I cannot imagine an if clause (if, then, else) in another language nor a loop sentence.
But I can imagine tying up in a more graphical way bits of code instead of doing so abstractly. I remember a recent answer that produce Alan Kay recently regarding something similar, it was to learning music and he considered that the key is not simplifying everything but learning the nature of music itself (instead of painting it). I agree with that, but I would like to point out two things in this respect. One, is that music has a language (notation) completely different of any language (spoken or written for that matter), specific, fast and appropriate. But on the other hand, from what I recall when I was young, in the US I saw another method that used (a, b, c, d) instead of the regular one that simplified the reading and learning of music specially for youngsters. So this brings me back to the concept of Hypercard.
Please mind if I went a little too far, and mind for my English and not having the words nor the concepts to make myself clear enough.
I do enjoy the discussions that take place in this list. And for one thing, I believe that the true nature of democracy will only arrive, not when we all have a roof and food, but when all have the chance to have the same education and knowledge, but not in a some abstract form but in a true, active way. For this, I believe Squeak, being free, aside of how It may evolve or revolutionize in this bright present and promising future, has the true nature of democracy.
Thanks,
Daniel
PS: Sorry if I got too emotional on the whole matter, I am specially worried about my country, about the differences that really exist that keep us apart (inside my country and outside), and about the future of our children as a hole. I truly believe that children have the right to learn joyfully and that they entitled to have a future in its broadest meaning, and that we are responsible for that.
Maybe I just may go to a Shrink :-)
-- Hello, Squeakers!
If word has not made it your way, I am delighted to inform you that the Etoy project book I created with BJ Conn is now published and available!
It can be ordered directly from Squeakland.org and specifically at http://squeakland.org/sqmedia/sqmediahome.html
Thanks to those of you who provided feedback on early drafts and tested projects along the way.
We hope you find the book of value and will share this news with other teachers, parents and students. Have fun Squeaking!!!
-- Kim _______________________________________________ Squeakland mailing list Squeakland@squeakland.org http://squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/squeakland
Daniel Vareika Diseñador Industrial
DISEÑOS :: VAREIKA : Productos : Imagen : Hábitat : Ramon Massini 3415 - 705 CP II.300 Montevideo - Uruguay TeleFax (598-2) 707 9005 [ dvareika@redfacil.com.uy ]
Squeakland mailing list Squeakland@squeakland.org http://squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/squeakland
--
Dear Kim,
Thank you for your precise and concise reply, but most of all for your dedication and heart. You did quite answer every question I had in my head, even those I did not fulfill to transmit clearly enough.
I never thought that the Squeak from squeak.org was any different from that of squeakland.org. I will have a look at that, since every time I have downloaded, it was from the first.
Regarding the Spanish version, I will have a look at it the moment I find some time. Unluckily, I don´t have much spare time, and the little I have left, I feel it is more important to BE with my child than to "work" for him. Still I believe I should find the time, at least to "play" with Squeak and be able to transmit something to him.
Regarding a multilingual Squeak I am not sure what to say. On one side I believe that translating menus and dialog boxes are a good thing. Still I have seen many translations that to be keen: are lousy. Happened with some versions of Photoshop (one that I recall) and also did have the same experience with Archicad.
I don´t think this is due to both companies which make wonderful products, but to the fact that sometimes the person that is translating should know about the software and the technology that he or she is dealing with, so as not to do a "linguistic" translation.
On the other hand, in Spanish, depending from where someone is, there are many expressions that are more local than international, and to make matters worse, I have found that, to say the same thing in English and in Spanish, in English it takes most of the time (95% roughly) less (much less) letters than in Spanish. This ends up meaning, smaller menus, easier to read and understand, and finally to convey the message. I would say it ends up having a better user interface, which I cater the most.
Although I love my mother tongue, I see specially in English this inner beauty regarding software. I am not completely sure, but the English language has fewer words than Spanish (only a fact).
On the other hand, a written verbose computer language by itself, I am not so sure if it is a good thing to translate and have many incarnations or flavors for that matter. A good case has been applescript that if I am not wrong could have had different incarnations (flavours) of the computer language but never did (at least in Spanish).
Besides all technical material ends up appearing first in English (even though the author might have another mother tongue) and only then in other languages only to show that the info probably would be outdated.
This was the reason I put in my previous e-mail the part of music as opposed to a verbose language.
Yours,
Daniel
Kim Rose wrote:
Dear Daniel - Thanks for your good wishes, support and interest! Let me attempt to answer [some of] your questions.
- It is quite possible that you can play with Squeak -- the Etoy
component of the system -- *with* your 6 year old. (Alan has a term called "lapware" for software that is most suited for use by a young child and adult.) Our book may give you some ideas, but the projects there are mostly geared to 8 - 14 year olds. We are sure many parents and teachers might look at our examples and think of their own, adapted to a variety of content/learning areas and for different age learners.
- I urge you to download Squeak from SQUEAKLAND.org as opposed to
the squeak.org site. We keep the "Squeakland" version as stable as possible where the image updated/maintained on the other site is more experimental and changing. Our project book assumes people will be playing with the Squeak downloaded from "Squeakland".
You may have seen that our colleaguel, Diego Gomez-Deck is working hard on a Spanish version -- I encourage you to visit his "small land" site if you have not.
I will ask others in the community to comment on a "multi-lingual" Squeak and what might be "best" or suitable for learners... It is great you are enjoying the discussions on this list and contributing -- thank you!! There is no need to apologize for your emotion or passion in your beliefs -- I think this is common among us. Let's keep the discussion going, thanks, Kim
At 1:28 PM -0300 8/26/03, Daniel Vareika wrote:
Dear Kim and all Squeakers,
First and foremost, congratulations on your new book! As a father of a 6 year old child, I am looking for new ways to stimulate my child. I have been an active "reader" member of this list, though this is the first time I participate.
I would like to know whether a 6 year old is too young to Squeak, if your book is intended for that age also or if there is another platform aside Squeak more appropriate for that age range.
I have downloaded Squeak (3.5 I believe) both in an old Mac and a PC. To tell you the truth, I did opened it but I have not found the time to dedicate time to learn it (my country sucks for that matter, at least nowadays). What I only did was browse it. Though browsing it I found it a little bit daunting for my child and maybe for myself.
I was particularly interested in the whole discussion regarding levels ala HyperCard and the different point of views. Regarding metaphors as a whole new way of programming I do not have yet a point made up in my mind. What I can say is that Icons and English may work well to the native speakers of the language, but to kids like my child it would mean that he has another hindrance in this case the Language.
I am from Uruguay (we speak Spanish) and although I am literate and fluent in English and my child is going to a School where he learns English not as a second language but as a first language, still we are not getting to the mass and to be truthful I find this (in my heart) not democratic enough.
On the other hand I am not so sure that porting a language (computer language) from one language to another (for example English to Spanish) is the right choice. As an example when I see formulas of Excel in Spanish where my mind is accustomed to see them in English, I simply hate them. I cannot imagine an if clause (if, then, else) in another language nor a loop sentence.
But I can imagine tying up in a more graphical way bits of code instead of doing so abstractly. I remember a recent answer that produce Alan Kay recently regarding something similar, it was to learning music and he considered that the key is not simplifying everything but learning the nature of music itself (instead of painting it). I agree with that, but I would like to point out two things in this respect. One, is that music has a language (notation) completely different of any language (spoken or written for that matter), specific, fast and appropriate. But on the other hand, from what I recall when I was young, in the US I saw another method that used (a, b, c, d) instead of the regular one that simplified the reading and learning of music specially for youngsters. So this brings me back to the concept of Hypercard.
Please mind if I went a little too far, and mind for my English and not having the words nor the concepts to make myself clear enough.
I do enjoy the discussions that take place in this list. And for one thing, I believe that the true nature of democracy will only arrive, not when we all have a roof and food, but when all have the chance to have the same education and knowledge, but not in a some abstract form but in a true, active way. For this, I believe Squeak, being free, aside of how It may evolve or revolutionize in this bright present and promising future, has the true nature of democracy.
Thanks,
Daniel
PS: Sorry if I got too emotional on the whole matter, I am specially worried about my country, about the differences that really exist that keep us apart (inside my country and outside), and about the future of our children as a hole. I truly believe that children have the right to learn joyfully and that they entitled to have a future in its broadest meaning, and that we are responsible for that.
Maybe I just may go to a Shrink :-)
-- Hello, Squeakers!
If word has not made it your way, I am delighted to inform you that the Etoy project book I created with BJ Conn is now published and available!
It can be ordered directly from Squeakland.org and specifically at http://squeakland.org/sqmedia/sqmediahome.html
Thanks to those of you who provided feedback on early drafts and tested projects along the way.
We hope you find the book of value and will share this news with other teachers, parents and students. Have fun Squeaking!!!
-- Kim _______________________________________________ Squeakland mailing list Squeakland@squeakland.org http://squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/squeakland
Daniel Vareika Diseñador Industrial
DISEÑOS :: VAREIKA
: Productos : Imagen : Hábitat :
Ramon Massini 3415 - 705 CP II.300 Montevideo - Uruguay TeleFax (598-2) 707 9005
[ dvareika@redfacil.com.uy ]
Squeakland mailing list Squeakland@squeakland.org http://squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/squeakland
Hi Daniel...
[small snip]
Regarding the Spanish version, I will have a look at it the moment I find some time. Unluckily, I don´t have much spare time, and the little I have left, I feel it is more important to BE with my child than to "work" for him.
Yes, every of us are exposed to the decision ("to BE with" or "to work for") but there are a better option: "to work with" or better "to learn together". Instead of following the classic idea of "teaching" where one person (aka the teacher) knows and teach to people without knowledge.
I decide to follow the other "let's lean together"... and you know, I learned really a lot from my son but, the most important, it's much more funny!
Still I believe I should find the time, at least to "play" with Squeak and be able to transmit something to him.
Try to play with him and learn together.
Regarding a multilingual Squeak I am not sure what to say. On one side I believe that translating menus and dialog boxes are a good thing.
Our goal (in Small-Land) is to translated all the GUI and nothing more.
Still I have seen many translations that to be keen: are lousy.
Sure... In Babel we'll provide to the user a tool where the translations can be changed and also a "debug" mode is available where the translated phrase is shown together with the original one. (see the attached image menu_in_spanish.jpeg)
[small snip]
On the other hand, in Spanish, depending from where someone is, there are many expressions that are more local than international, and to make matters worse, I have found that, to say the same thing in English and in Spanish, in English it takes most of the time (95% roughly) less (much less) letters than in Spanish. This ends up meaning, smaller menus, easier to read and understand, and finally to convey the message. I would say it ends up having a better user interface, which I cater the most.
Did you see (just as an example) the Japanese Squeak translation? (look at http://hw001.gate01.com/%7Ethoru/squeak/tour/img/image75.gif). I never felt so lost in Squeak before! I don't want to expose the kids to this feeling.
Although I love my mother tongue, I see specially in English this inner beauty regarding software. I am not completely sure, but the English language has fewer words than Spanish (only a fact).
Sure. What we're talking about kids and most of them are not bilingual. I write all my programs in English but my son (who knows quiet a lot of English) feel much more comfortable with eToys in Spanish.
On the other hand, a written verbose computer language by itself, I am not so sure if it is a good thing to translate and have many incarnations or flavors for that matter. A good case has been applescript that if I am not wrong could have had different incarnations (flavours) of the computer language but never did (at least in Spanish).
We'll not translate the Smalltalk language but the GUI.
Besides all technical material ends up appearing first in English (even though the author might have another mother tongue) and only then in other languages only to show that the info probably would be outdated.
This was the reason I put in my previous e-mail the part of music as opposed to a verbose language.
Yours,
Daniel
Cheers,
Diego Gomez Deck http://www.small-land.org
Daniel,
Regarding a multilingual Squeak I am not sure what to say. On one side I believe that translating menus and dialog boxes are a good thing. Still I have seen many translations that to be keen: are lousy. Happened with some versions of Photoshop (one that I recall) and also did have the same experience with Archicad.
As Diego says, translating entire Smalltalk language doesn't make much sense. Fortunately, The Etoy System can be viewed as a layer on the top of Squeak and the UI can be translatable.
However, current way of translating doesn't give the best result, since the word order in tiles doesn't take the other languages' word order into account.
"Translation is the other side of a tapestry" -- Cervantes
-- Yoshiki
squeakland@lists.squeakfoundation.org
-
Daniel Vareika -
diegogomezdeck＠consultar.com -
Kim Rose -
Yoshiki Ohshima