squeakland April 2003

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104 participants
293 discussions

Etoy issues -- Keyboard Control of etoys / Alice
by jahanzeb＠lums.edu.pk 18 Apr '03

18 Apr '03

>You could also try a joystick player. Look in the supplies bin to see >what they do. Yes they tried that... but such a control mechanism isn't what kids are used to. In traditional games, it's either a point-and-click interface, or the mouse controls your first-person perspective completely, or you use the keyboard. Even though the kids are using these joystick objects, the consistency with which the question 'can I use the keyboard?' comes up makes me believe that they would really prefer that. Alice '99 is implemented in Squeak, but its greatest strength -- the drag-and-drop interface -- is missing. I was glad to see a Teddy-like 3D object creator in OpenCroquet though. Any plans to implement Alice's easy-to-use interface in Squeak? Have you guys checked out Alice2 (www.alice.org)? It's extremely slow and made in java, but the interface is really slick in the sense that it follows the same tile mechanism for programming, and also has a couple of other neat features (arrow keys/mouse controls for objects such as '*mouse* controls *car*', for/while loops, do-together/do-in-order options for multiple actions). One thing I particularly liked about Alice's interface was what the team themselves summed up in http://www.alice.org/stage3/lessons.html where they talk about controlled exposure to power: == We can use function overloading and optional keyword parameters in a programming language to mask API complexity until the user is motivated to learn it. Users start by learning the simple versions of commands, and as they themselves become more sophisticated they learn the more complex variations of commands. Ex. bunny.move(forward) bunny.move(forward, distance=2) bunny.move(forward, distance=2, duration=4) bunny.move(forward, distance=2, duration=4, asSeenBy=helicopter) bunny.move(forward, distance=2, duration=4, asSeenBy=helicopter, style=abruptly) == This in my opinion is good because it allows the user/child to progress from a simple idea to harder ones gradually, as required. Even though Squeak has no ceiling, the jump from novice to anything higher is humongous. One step has you dealing with a limited number of tiles that can do a limited number of things, and the next step requires you to get into technical code to do anything more complex like using a keyboard or creating an error-free pac-man type game. Ideally, this should be a gradient/continuum of increasing complexity. In Squeak, I believe the different levels of power are 1) etoy classic, 2) etoy 'universal-tiles', and 3) text-based programming. However, I couldn't really figure out whether there were any real differences in *power* between the first two levels other than different names for the same tiles. If this is true, then there are really two levels, etoys and superusers... which means that the 'no floor / no ceiling' concept is there, yet the link between these two paradigms is so immense that its almost like two entirely different environments that have no obvious link, at least for the users of the simpler environment. Any comments? Jahanzeb

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Etoy issues
by jahanzeb＠lums.edu.pk 18 Apr '03

18 Apr '03

Bob, >Well, you can try turning on the preference 'universalTiles' which make tile >programming look a bit more like programming and a little less like tiles. >This may be hard to back out of, so don't do it if you need to get back to >where you started without quitting and restarting Squeak. Could you tell me where I can find these preferences? I looked and looked but have no idea where they could be. Also, when in 'show code textually' mode, how do I save what I've written? I tried doing alt-s which asked me for my initials, and then it seemed to work. However, on reverting to tile mode, it said it would lose the changes it made. I assume this means that there is no way of getting back to tile mode with the changes updated (even though the change might have been simply changing a value from say 5 to 10). You'd said "Once you start changing a script (method in normal Squeak parlance) textually, it's best to stay in text mode for that script" but from what I can see, you don't really have a choice, you HAVE to stay in text mode. Am I correct? Jahanzeb

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Etoy issues -- Keyboard Control of etoys
by jahanzeb＠lums.edu.pk 18 Apr '03

18 Apr '03

Hi, This does definitely work and it's better than no keyboard control. However, it would be really great if you could have keyboard control working regardless of the keyboard's repeat/delay rates, instead focussing on detecting the keydown and keyup events (if that's possible). This way, you could have two keys pressed and they would both register... ie, you can press left and forward, and the car should turn left and move forward simultaneously. This might not seem like a big deal, and maybe it isn't, but I remember when I was young and trying to program on my own, this was one of the main things I used to want to get my program to do. I even managed to get it finally, and was really proud of that, but it would be great to have the functionality in squeak to be able to do this without much of a hassle. Let me know your thoughts on this, Jahanzeb At 12:32 AM 1/26/2003 -0800, you wrote: >Hi, Jahanzeb, > >>1) Kids want to use the keyboard to control their creations. What do I tell >>them? > >There is currently no direct support for keyboard control of etoys, >but it would not be hard to add. > >Try loading the attached project to see one possible approach. If >people like this, we could consider adding something like it to the >etoy system. Comments please! > >Cheers, > > -- Scott > >Attachment Converted: "c:\j\eudora\attach\Keyboard_Navigation_Demo.006.pr" >

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Etoy issues
by arning＠charm.net 18 Apr '03

18 Apr '03

Jahanzeb On Fri, 24 Jan 2003 13:48:26 -0800 Jahanzeb Sherwani <jahanzeb(a)lums.edu.pk> wrote: >Thanks a lot... this is what I was looking for. Is there more info about >this on the www.squeak.org site? Yes, check the Documentation page. There are tutorials, books, this mailing list and swikis (particularly http://minnow.cc.gatech.edu/squeak/1) referenced there. All of these can help. >Is there any way to create a middle ground between the squeakland tiles and >the world-browser-code type thing? I remember reading about the three >levels of Squeak, targetted to elementary school-kids, a middle audience, >and then expert users... did anything become of the middle one? Well, you can try turning on the preference 'universalTiles' which make tile programming look a bit more like programming and a little less like tiles. This may be hard to back out of, so don't do it if you need to get back to where you started without quitting and restarting Squeak. >Also, is there any way to make the tiles' code transparent? For instance, >if I want to see how a the 'bounce' tile makes the object bounce and apply >the same algorithm to a 'color sees' test block's 'yes' section, is there >any way to copy paste code or something of the sort between these two parts? While still in "classic" mode (i.e. before enablilng universalTiles) in each tile script there is a menu item to 'show code textually'. This will let you see a bit more under the hood. What you will see, however, are generally simple messages sent to self, in the case of bounce, something like: self bounce: 'croak' You can find the implementation of #bounce: by highlighting the word including the colon and pressing cmd-m (or alt-m). As to going back and forth, that's a bit trickier. Tiles only show a subset of normal Squeak/Smalltalk and thus may fail if you make changes textually that are outside this subset. Once you start changing a script (method in normal Squeak parlance) textually, it's best to stay in text mode for that script. Cheers, Bob >>Jahanzeb, >> >>There certainly is, but it's something rather different from the >tile-based programming you have been discussing in your emails. >> >>- open a browser (world menu/open/browser) >>- in the top-left pane select Morphic-Games >>- in the next pane to the right, there are three classes: Tetris, >TetrisBlock and TetrisBoard. Select one of these >>- in the top-right pane are the methods in that class. Select one and the >code for that method will appear in the bottom pane. >> >>This will let you see how Tetris was created. Learning how to make one >yourself is the subject of a somewhat longer discussion. ;-)

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Etoy issues
by jahanzeb＠lums.edu.pk 18 Apr '03

18 Apr '03

Bob, Thanks a lot... this is what I was looking for. Is there more info about this on the www.squeak.org site? Is there any way to create a middle ground between the squeakland tiles and the world-browser-code type thing? I remember reading about the three levels of Squeak, targetted to elementary school-kids, a middle audience, and then expert users... did anything become of the middle one? Also, is there any way to make the tiles' code transparent? For instance, if I want to see how a the 'bounce' tile makes the object bounce and apply the same algorithm to a 'color sees' test block's 'yes' section, is there any way to copy paste code or something of the sort between these two parts? >Jahanzeb, > >There certainly is, but it's something rather different from the tile-based programming you have been discussing in your emails. > >- open a browser (world menu/open/browser) >- in the top-left pane select Morphic-Games >- in the next pane to the right, there are three classes: Tetris, TetrisBlock and TetrisBoard. Select one of these >- in the top-right pane are the methods in that class. Select one and the code for that method will appear in the bottom pane. > >This will let you see how Tetris was created. Learning how to make one yourself is the subject of a somewhat longer discussion. ;-) > >Cheers, >Bob > >

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Etoy issues
by jahanzeb＠lums.edu.pk 18 Apr '03

18 Apr '03

Hi Andreas, I see what you mean about clean scripts. I tried it: http://www.squeakland.org/project.jsp?http://ravi.lums.edu.pk/sherwani/4-Sen sor Maze.002.pr but it still doesn't work. Some more technical questions that I hope you can answer: 1) Kids want to use the keyboard to control their creations. What do I tell them? 2) How does one use the max function? suppose I want to set xspeed <- max of xspeed,-xspeed) ... how do I do this? 3) When publishing a project (why not save/load instead of publish/find?), due to the lossy compresion on the graphics, the color values I've put into the 'color sees' option don't work out, especially since i've resized the image. Whats the easiest way for a child to not encounter this problem? 4) A kid wants to know how to make chess, I want to know how to make tetris. Is there any way we can see and understand the way these objects were created for Squeak so that we can make them ourselves too? 5) Is there any way to edit a script in text mode and then see the changes come up in tile mode, or is it that once you've left tile mode and made a change, there's no going back? 6) One kid wanted to make pinball, and initially set it up so that a ball goes up in a playfield, hits an object, and bounces off it. How do you make objects bounce off other objects the way they bounce off playfield borders? He made it turn 180 but that only works if you make it hit the object head on. I couldn't figure out any easy way of making this happen. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated! Jahanzeb At 11:54 PM 1/23/2003 +0100, you wrote: >Hi Jahanzeb, > >This problem can be very cleanly solved by separating out the individual >cases and write a script for each single one. Here is an example: > >batman collideTop <ticking> >Test batman's top color sees maze's color > Yes batman's y decrease by batman's y speed > >The above handles the case of colliding with the "top edge of batman" in >which case it takes the current y speed and applies it inversely to keep >batman within the maze (otherwise you would be able to go through the >walls). You can write similar scripts for bottom, left, and right. > >The above still isn't perfect because you will find that batman is going to >"vibrate" when he hits a wall. We should reset the speed when we bump into a >wall so that batman isn't going to repeatedly try to run into the wall, >e.g., > >batman collideTop <ticking> >Test batman's top color sees maze's color > Yes batman's y decrease by batman's y speed > batman's yspeed <- 0. > >The nice thing about writing individual ticking scripts is that it is easy >to test them individually and see if they are working correctly. And once >you got one of them going all the others follow naturally. Also note that at >this point your control script is really only concerned with the joystick >control which makes it a lot simpler to read and understand. > >Hope this helps, > - Andreas > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-squeakland(a)squeakland.org >> [mailto:owner-squeakland@squeakland.org] On Behalf Of >> Jahanzeb Sherwani >> Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2003 7:32 AM >> To: squeakland(a)squeakland.org >> Subject: Re: Etoy issues >> >> >> At 05:44 PM 1/22/2003 -0800, Alan Kay wrote: >> >Once this is done, then one only has to realize that a maze >> is a kind >> >of road ... >> >> I've uploaded a project to the BSS super swiki called >> '4-sensor maze'. It's >> not working as well as it should, so if anyone can improve >> upon it, please >> do so and upload it back. My constraints were that it should be simple >> enough to make it easy to explain and understand, but >> powerful enough to >> work properly. I don't think this solution meets either of these >> constraints, but it would be great if someone else can >> improve upon it. >> >> Jahanzeb >> > > >

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Etoy issues
by Origbj＠aol.com 18 Apr '03

18 Apr '03

Phil: As it sounds like you just made another painting, they do not see each other unless given some rule so that they do. But, if you want something to stay within a confined space, pull out a playfield from your supplies bin and place the painting in it. It will act just like the world and bounce off the wall of the playfield. Bestm BJ

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A couple of questions around Squeak
by amela＠advanced.org 18 Apr '03

18 Apr '03

Hi everyone, I am new in the group and I may be asking something that you already discussed in this forum. I apologize if I will be repeating it. 1. Did any of you study (even on a small sample) the difference between the projects that had the following emphasis: "creating to learn myself" versus "creating to teach someone else". If you did what was your experience? Did you use Squeak or some other tool? If you used Squeak for this purpose what was the quality of the material/project produced and how was it accepted by the "users" of such Squeak lessons? 2. Was the production value of Squeak projects something that your students commented and if they did what were their comments? Was it ever relevant for the learning goals that you have set? (here I have in mind comparison between the production value of best web sites and 3D games, and Squeak projects) 3. Did you have a chance to follow up on your students who used Squeak in your classes - do they continue using it in other classes? At home? After they leave your classes and move to the higher grades? 4. Have you noticed any difference between the ways Squeak is used by girls and by boys (themes selected, scripting styles, level of details...)? 5. What is the latest set of file formats that are supported (i.e. could be imported) in Squeak project? Does it support all file formats as an average web browser? Many thanks for your comments in advance! best, Amela ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Dr. Amela Sadagic amela(a)advanced.org Director of EFL Programs ph: 914 765 1114 Advanced Network & Services fax: 914 765 1115 200 Business Park Drive Armonk, NY 10504 project page: www.futureoflearning.org personal page: www.advanced.org/~amela

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Etoy issues
by jahanzeb＠lums.edu.pk 18 Apr '03

18 Apr '03

At 05:44 PM 1/22/2003 -0800, Alan Kay wrote: >Once this is done, then one only has to realize that a maze is a kind >of road ... I've uploaded a project to the BSS super swiki called '4-sensor maze'. It's not working as well as it should, so if anyone can improve upon it, please do so and upload it back. My constraints were that it should be simple enough to make it easy to explain and understand, but powerful enough to work properly. I don't think this solution meets either of these constraints, but it would be great if someone else can improve upon it. Jahanzeb

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Etoy issues
by jahanzeb＠lums.edu.pk 18 Apr '03

18 Apr '03

Hi Phil, I had the SAME experience today. I was interested in making a maze-like game, and was stuck at how to make it bounce of a wall. There are a couple of ideas that came to mind: - if it touches the wall (overlap, touchesA, color sees), make the car move back. The problem here is if you had turned around, and gone backwards to crash into the wall, you would continue to go into the wall -- not what we want! - if touch, make car go in the opposite direction to the joystick. Again this isn't satisfactory at all. - if touch, make car stop. This means the car will be stuck indefinitely. Also, the lack of left/right movement tiles make the movement very un-PacMan like which is unintuitive. If one uses the language construct: car's x <- car's x + 1 .. it's too intimidating for schoolkids who've had no programming experience to understand. If anyone has any better ideas on how to make a maze, I'd also really like to know. Further, any word on how to use the keyboard to do anything? Also, if the kids want to see how the tetris game was made, for instance, what's the best way they would do this? With the Squeak team busy, I guess we'll have to wait for some time for a response. Is there anyone on the squeak team who's not going to Japan? :) Jahanzeb At 07:43 AM 1/22/2003 -0500, Phil Firsenbaum wrote: >Thanks for the offer, BJ. >I'm currently working with an elementary school,so I'm sure the >students I have contact with are similar in age to your students. Right >now I'm teaching a MicroWorlds class in which students are creating >their own games (mazes and the like) So, I tried making a maze in >Squeak. One problem I've encountered involves getting an object (my >car) to stay within a confined area...I want it to bounce off the wall >of the rectangle I drew, the way it bounces off the perimeter of the >screen. With the lack of documentation, I'm at a loss. > >Phil > >On Saturday, January 11, 2003, at 10:22 AM, Kidd, Gary wrote: > >> I am BJ Conn a teacher at the Open Charter School. I have been using >> Squeak >> >> with my kids for a couple of years. What exactly are you looking to >> do? I >> am currently wrting a guide for using Squeak to enhance math and >> science >> skills and am nearly finished but it is not ready yet. can I help you >> with >> any ideas? What grade level (age group) are you working with. I work >> with >> 9,10, and 11 year olds. >> >> BJ > > >

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squeakland April 2003