Hi all,
very lively chat today, you should have been there :)
Topics included:
* import/export of data and objects as files * Randy wants to send single objects by Email, not just projects * resurrecting some network sharing code * perhaps make it work in the local network? * need discovery mechanism like Etoys uses under Sugar * use VNC instead of (or to implement a new version of) Nebraska? * and hypothetically, Croquet sharing * finally, some book sprint talk I didn't quite catch, but there surely will be a separate mail
Full log below, as usual. And see you next Monday, same time:
- Bert -
--> Richo2 (~be126361@skylab.immuexa.com) has joined #etoys --> hilaire (~hilaire@bon74-1-88-184-136-97.fbx.proxad.net) has joined #etoys --> randycat (~cebcff48@skylab.immuexa.com) has joined #etoys --> morphle (~5065b030@skylab.immuexa.com) has joined #etoys <Richo2> hi <bertf> hi --> ritaf (~ritaf@mgdb-4db8d798.pool.mediaWays.net) has joined #etoys *** Mode #etoys +v ritaf by ChanServ <randycat> hi Richo <ritaf> hi --> jecel (~jecel@189-19-1-51.dsl.telesp.net.br) has joined #etoys *** Mode #etoys +v jecel by ChanServ <randycat> hi Rita <bertf> a few more folks than ususal here today :) <bertf> anything specific you guys want to talk about? <randycat> We would like to talk about Richo's next tools <hilaire> hello <bertf> hi Hilaire <bertf> randycat: sure. let's start <-- atphalix (~hmd@41.248.178.149) has left #etoys <randycat> do you want to start with Richo or authoring <bertf> so what's the next steps going to be? <bertf> 'authoring"? <randycat> 1. to develop an object to output and input data <randycat> the title above says the session is about authoring is always on <Richo2> the idea would be to serialize morphs in files <Richo2> to send them in mails <Richo2> or somethink like that <Richo2> I tried a naive approach using ReferenceStream <Richo2> and it worked except for the scripts <Richo2> because the player class was not in the image <bertf> randycat: no, that's the general idea of Etoys :) <Richo2> so I tried to serialize the player class <randycat> Rita suggested that you all might have things developed or ideas about how best tp proceed <Richo2> but it didn't worked <randycat> Richo: are you just dealing with text data now? <bertf> randycat: input and output of what kind of data? <randycat> text to start with <Richo2> I started trying to export entire morphs <Richo2> that's more fun than just text <randycat> then graphics and etoys like a flying airplaine (a sub project for reuse) <bertf> Richo2: I'd think the point is more to be able to exchange data with non-Etoys systems <ritaf> in our chat we talked about nebraska or other ways to exchange objects <randycat> also to output data for analysis of student progress <Richo2> yes, but also to share morphs between projects <bertf> we can share objects between projects already <randycat> something like Squeak Basket developed in Japan <bertf> facilities for text input and output are pretty much missing <randycat> I haven't had trouble sharing by putting the morph in the supplies, but Stephen has <Richo2> how do you send a morph to an image in another computer? <Richo2> I mean, the morph only, not the entire project <bertf> saving objects to a file will be even more trouble <bertf> Richo2: what's wrong with sending the project? <bertf> under Sugar you can send an object directly <bertf> providing the same on the local network would be cool <Richo2> what we talked about in the education meeting was to be able to share individual morphs, not just projects <Richo2> the idea of having a repository of objects <Richo2> were kids would put their morphs, drawings, etc. and others would get them out for their own project <randycat> could Richo pull out the part of Nebraska that shared projects on the network? <Richo2> I didn't know sugar was able to do that <bertf> nebraska is for screen sharing <bertf> etoys is able to do that, not sugar <Richo2> oh <bertf> but sugar provides thediscovery mechanism <randycat> but you could drop a morph on a badge to send it <Richo2> yes, nebraska lets you send morphs <bertf> you can do that on any machine, but you have to type in IP adresses <Richo2> yes, that's why the idea of using files came out <bertf> randycat: that badge dropping is what we use in Sugar <bertf> Well you can save a morph in a file which should be pretty much equicvalent <bertf> but you could check the badge sendign code <randycat> is there a badge object in Etoys sugar? <Richo2> I didn't know that was still working in current etoys --> matmo (~chatzilla@doconnel.force9.co.uk) has joined #etoys <bertf> yes <matmo> hi all <Richo2> hi <bertf> hi <bertf> randycat: it's even in your image, in the object catalog under B <bertf> or so <randycat> I'm glad it still works <Richo2> :P <Richo2> I didn't even look for it <ritaf> what do I have to do to send an object? <bertf> get you peer's badge, drop the object onto it <ritaf> could I type randys ip address and send him an object? <randycat> what if you want to email the morph because the recipient is offline? <bertf> if both you and randy had a real ip address then yes. in rality, you're both behind a NAT firewall, which broke the internet years ago <randycat> do you want to try it Rita? I can start etoys and send you my IP <ritaf> yes, let's try! <bertf> home computers cannot talk to each other anymore <bertf> randycat: you have a fixed IP adress? <bertf> I know for sure that Rita doesn't ;) <ritaf> so it's only working in a local network? <bertf> everywhere you can make a direct connection <randycat> I just checked and I don't have a fixed IP <Richo2> well, if this still works then I can look at how it serializes objects and modify it a little to store them in a file <bertf> Sugar uses a framewrok called "Telepathy" which hides the gory details <Richo2> that's what the "share" button does? --> dcorking (~dcorking@91.85.186.26) has joined #etoys <bertf> it uses the local network or a direct connection or a server-based connection transparently <bertf> Richo2: yes <Richo2> I just noticed the button is not in the sugar bar anymore <bertf> under sugar it is <Richo2> ohh <Richo2> I need to install sugar... <randycat> my badge doenst show my IP as it used to - is that a bad sign? I do have an IP in my network settings, but it may not be fixed <bertf> it puts your Etoys into the network view so others can join just by clicking on your icon. for everyone who joins, you get a badge. then you can just drop objects on a badge to send them <bertf> randycat: hasn't been used in a long time, might have got broken. currently we don;t support it. <bertf> but sugar uses the same badge, pretty much <Richo2> well, I will play with it and see if it works <randycat> bert: don't I also need a receiver + a badge? --> drgeo (~drgeo@bon74-1-88-184-136-97.fbx.proxad.net) has joined #etoys <bertf> randycat: as I said, the usewr interfasce is terrible. only meant for demos <bertf> randycat: you do not need a badge for you, but for your peer <bertf> entering the peer's ip address should work <bertf> if you open a listener, that is <bertf> rits: what's your ip? <randycat> rita: what is you IP? I will try to chat via Etoys? <bertf> randycat: you cannot <ritaf> 192.168.178.28 <bertf> rita is behind a firewall. I'm in the same local network as she so I can try locally here <randycat> Bert: Ok, but i'm curious - where is the listener? <bertf> I'm trying to find it <bertf> I think we hid it thoroughly <bertf> try "EToyListenerMorph new open" <randycat> can you find it in the morph list if you disable etoys friendly? <bertf> in the "new morph ..." menu under E, yes <bertf> rita: do you have a listener opened? <randycat> Thanks Bert, I found it <ritaf> yes --> karlram (~51aa9a20@skylab.immuexa.com) has joined #etoys <bertf> Cmd-Shift-W, new morph, alphabetical, E, EtoysListenerMorph <bertf> then click the black head <karlram> Hi <ritaf> Hi Karl <bertf> so ot starts listening <bertf> hi karl <bertf> ritaf: ready? <ritaf> hihi, looks funny <ritaf> thanks! <ritaf> cool <ritaf> it's still turning <bertf> so I just sent Rita an object I painted, including a running script <ritaf> and we chat! <bertf> text chat works too, kind-of <bertf> (she's in a room upstairs) <ritaf> wow, we need to document this <bertf> no we need to fix the UI <randycat> i have also used audio chat <Richo2> great news! <-- hilaire (~hilaire@bon74-1-88-184-136-97.fbx.proxad.net) has quit (Remote host closed the connection) <randycat> would it be easy to modify this for email? <bertf> the saving itself yes, I'd think <bertf> but interfacing to your system's email client, well, trickier <randycat> I used to use Nebraska with kids and they loved it - the hilight of their Etoys experience <bertf> but it's just screen sharing. tv basically <bertf> somethign way more cool, but also way more complicated, is netmorphs <randycat> once it is saved, could it be emailed in a separate step - that would be good <bertf> there you can steer your car to another kids' screen for example <bertf> randycat: yes, that would be the idea <Richo2> yes, I saw NetMorphs... it's cool <randycat> It was a great year at Squeakfest when we had all the neat things from Japan! <karlram> SeeTroughTalk has some network detection http://swikis.ddo.jp/SeeThroughTalk <bertf> netmorphs have network detection too <karlram> Ok <bertf> So I just saved a morph including a script to a file. works. <bertf> just when loading it, the script is not runnign anymore <bertf> have to cklick the ticker button <Richo2> excelent! then everything works <Richo2> why is it hidden? <bertf> because it's not usable <bertf> it eill not work always <bertf> people will get upset when we advertise a feature that does break more often than it works <karlram> Preferred way is to ublish projects <bertf> karlram: +1 <randycat> It is good in a classroom where there are no firewall issues. <bertf> yes, there broadcast could also work reasonably well <bertf> making it work locally wouldn't be too big an effort <bertf> though still you wouldn't be able to copy everything <bertf> like if you have more complex arrangement of multiple objects. those might break <randycat> I once used Nebraska to give a talk at a conference in NY from VA. It worked well - over 10 years ago. <morphle> Is someone documenting and maintaining the NetMorphs, eeTroughTalk and Nebraska stuff in the image? <bertf> yes, biut the others were only watching <bertf> morphle: no <bertf> we declared nebraska dead. if we ever want to resurrect it, VNC would be a better choice <Richo2> VNC inside Etoys? <morphle> Maybe asigning these things to maintainers would work better than letting it slide <bertf> we have both a VNC client and a server, sure <Richo2> there's so much I don't know... <karlram> We are so few... <morphle> Richo2: it is all documented in the mailing list <bertf> well it's not in Etoys, but many people are using it on their Squeak servers <Richo2> ok, I will look at that <morphle> Yes, I run a few hundred VNC's <bertf> morphle: we're trying to document and maintain Etoys first. As it is now. <morphle> ok <jecel> Matthew is working hard to get Cobalt running on Squeak 4.1 and if that can run in the same image as Etoys it will provide another way of sharing stuff <bertf> this feature discussion is only happenign because we're lucky enough that Richo is working in his GSoC project <morphle> the port is now almost done, it took only a few weeks <bertf> the rest of us is busy just getting another bug fix release out <randycat> Rita: is the book spring this week or next? <bertf> jecel: eventually :) <morphle> Anyone here interested in becoming involved in the effort to use Etoys as the OpenCobalt scripting language <ritaf> randycat: I just realised that I told you in the meeting it would be this week <karlram> Etoys got a lot of inspiration from Alice <bertf> karlram: that's reversing history ... <bertf> but it's true that one of the Alice guys implemented the Wonderland system in Squeak <randycat> Rita: will you email a time? <ritaf> randycat: since I didn't got the meeting notes out in time, only the educators know about this plan. we could also do it next week. Or start tomorrow <randycat> Rita: I will be available to help. <ritaf> randycat: I will do so. we should start, and it would be so geat to have it done by Squeakfest <ritaf> randycat: great, thanks! <randycat> Richo: do you have enough feedback or do you have more questions? <Richo2> no, I'm okay for now <bertf> lots of new durections to explore ... <Richo2> I'm glad lot of stuff still works <bertf> anything else anyone wants to talk about today? <randycat> Richo: can you Skype just a bit after this meeting? <karlram> i'm ok <Richo2> randycat: no, sorry.. I'm not at home right now <randycat> Richo: OK, I will send am email <randycat> Richo: Or we could chat here when everyone is done. <Richo2> ok <bertf> okay. thanks all for a nice chat. you're welcome to stay around, as usual. I'll broadcast the log ... <bertf> and see you next week :) <randycat> hanks Bert <karlram> thanks <ritaf> bye <matmo> bye