Hi Remi
Yes, the intermdiary level is "more technical" although not much "too technical". I'm especially interested, as I said, in multimedia issues (Wonderland, sounds and music, images...) and using squeak in the writing
of
multimedia applications, i.e. games, encyclopedia, cultural products, etc.
The general-purpose Squeak developers list is the ideal place for "more technical although not much" issues including the ones you enumerate. I am afraid that the idea of extra lists/forums was rejected on the Squeak-dev list for reasons very like the ones Kim gave you.
Great! if indeed we may discuss Squeak applications here on Squeakland, a new mailing list may in fact be unnecessary (especially if Michael
provides
forums on technical questions). I think indeed Squeakland "atmosphere" is much more favorable for discussion between "newbies", or even non-professional programmers . Don't get me wrong, I have always found people on the developper list fine and helpful; but the level is
obviously
very high, and I frequenly don't even dare to ask a question, even less start a discussion, and I'm sure I'm not alone in this case!
Well, I suggest you to dare. "newbies" questions are common in Squeak-dev list and appropriately answered. Squeakers of all levels populate the list and even newbies dare to answer sometimes :). I cannot change your sense of 'atmosphere' but, please, give Squeak-dev list a try.
Regards.
Emilio
Hello Emilio !
I cannot change your sense of 'atmosphere' but, please, give Squeak-dev
list
a try.
Regards.
Of course, I'm subscribed to dev-list as well (only with the "no email" option!), but as I said, how can one really use a list when one has to browse through 100-200 posts in order to find a post that, although not dealing directly with one's own work, is at least at one's own level of understanding? Again, don't take it as a criticism of the dev-list! I understand that what people are doing there is tremendously important! I just think that trying to mix communities with so different interests and agendas is too difficult. People trying to modify a VM and people trying to move a bunny in a creative way are not the same people; although the second ones certainly owe everything to the first ones (and perhaps even change category one day)..
As I said earlier it is not only about asking and answering questions: it's about automatically generating documentation...Squeak is an open source, free system; people are working on it on their spare time. One cannot ask to anybody to write an extensive documentation. But if people had archives of mails (or forum's posts) dealing with all the important questions relevant to a given level of knowledge, this would really help..
You know, for me it is too late, I have been assimilated ;-). I will continue to use Squeak, despite the lack of documentation, despite the difficulties to find the right info, etc. Squeak is better. Better than Java, better than Microsoft products, even better than some multimedia applications such as the couple Director/Flash....It remains to convince people about this. I'm convinced that many of these "intermediary programmers", perhaps the real Squeak's "marketing niche", may be frightened, after a first contact, by the brutal level jump between the first tutorials (or first books) and the high level of the squeak community as it appears on the web...
But as I said, if people think differently, no big deal for me..I will stay, anyway ;-)...
Bye Remi
Hello
I am a Newbie in case of etoys just so in case of smalltalk. I want to learn both and so I subscribed booth lists. I archive the mails, so I have the possibility to search the lists offline. If I am interested in a special task, I search very often two times, because the level and the issues of my interests belongs to both lists. This is a justifiable labor. Really I have to read a lot, I understand nothing or only a little bit, on the other hand I learnd much in this little steps out of this difficult mails. The first time the know how of the comunity made me frightened, but nowadays it is important for me to know, that I uses a list with (friendly and supporting) specialists behind it. I fear, if we have to many lists, we will divide the comunity in specialists, runaways and newbies. To get a good answer perhaps I have to ask twice - first in the newbie-list and ones more in the runaway- or specialist-list - but the scruple we will have to do so, will be mutch stronger than to day.
Regards
Thomas
Hello Emilio !
I cannot change your sense of 'atmosphere' but, please, give Squeak-dev
list
a try.
Regards.
Of course, I'm subscribed to dev-list as well (only with the "no email" option!), but as I said, how can one really use a list when one has to browse through 100-200 posts in order to find a post that, although not dealing directly with one's own work, is at least at one's own level of understanding? Again, don't take it as a criticism of the dev-list! I understand that what people are doing there is tremendously important! I just think that trying to mix communities with so different interests and agendas is too difficult. People trying to modify a VM and people trying to move a bunny in a creative way are not the same people; although the second ones certainly owe everything to the first ones (and perhaps even change category one day)..
As I said earlier it is not only about asking and answering questions: it's about automatically generating documentation...Squeak is an open source, free system; people are working on it on their spare time. One cannot ask to anybody to write an extensive documentation. But if people had archives of mails (or forum's posts) dealing with all the important questions relevant to a given level of knowledge, this would really help..
You know, for me it is too late, I have been assimilated ;-). I will continue to use Squeak, despite the lack of documentation, despite the difficulties to find the right info, etc. Squeak is better. Better than Java, better than Microsoft products, even better than some multimedia applications such as the couple Director/Flash....It remains to convince people about this. I'm convinced that many of these "intermediary programmers", perhaps the real Squeak's "marketing niche", may be frightened, after a first contact, by the brutal level jump between the first tutorials (or first books) and the high level of the squeak community as it appears on the web...
But as I said, if people think differently, no big deal for me..I will stay, anyway ;-)...
Bye Remi
Squeakland mailing list Squeakland@squeakland.org http://squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/squeakland
Hello everybody out there !
I just wanted to say quickly that I (fully, entirely, completely, 100 %, without any reserve, etc ...) *agree* with what Remi Sussan said below.
PS: This is not a French attack :-) ( I don't know him)
Bye
François
Remi Sussan wrote:
Of course, I'm subscribed to dev-list as well (only with the "no email" option!), but as I said, how can one really use a list when one has to browse through 100-200 posts in order to find a post that, although not dealing directly with one's own work, is at least at one's own level of understanding? Again, don't take it as a criticism of the dev-list! I understand that what people are doing there is tremendously important! I just think that trying to mix communities with so different interests and agendas is too difficult. People trying to modify a VM and people trying to move a bunny in a creative way are not the same people; although the second ones certainly owe everything to the first ones (and perhaps even change category one day)..
As I said earlier it is not only about asking and answering questions: it's about automatically generating documentation...Squeak is an open source, free system; people are working on it on their spare time. One cannot ask to anybody to write an extensive documentation. But if people had archives of mails (or forum's posts) dealing with all the important questions relevant to a given level of knowledge, this would really help..
You know, for me it is too late, I have been assimilated ;-). I will continue to use Squeak, despite the lack of documentation, despite the difficulties to find the right info, etc. Squeak is better. Better than Java, better than Microsoft products, even better than some multimedia applications such as the couple Director/Flash....It remains to convince people about this. I'm convinced that many of these "intermediary programmers", perhaps the real Squeak's "marketing niche", may be frightened, after a first contact, by the brutal level jump between the first tutorials (or first books) and the high level of the squeak community as it appears on the web...
But as I said, if people think differently, no big deal for me..I will stay, anyway ;-)...
Bye Remi
Squeakland mailing list Squeakland@squeakland.org http://squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/squeakland
squeakland@lists.squeakfoundation.org
-
Francois schnell -
Oca Emilio -
Remi Sussan -
Thomas Bernitt