Hello, I just joined this list today and have been briefly scanning old maessages (or aleast those from last month). Is this list for children using squeak, or for those who hope to help those learning squeak?
I am a home educating parent who stumbled across the concept of small talk in a throw out book from our local library. I was interested enough to search for it on google and came up with squeak eventually. My edest son has aspirations to learning C++. And I thought smalltalk sounded like a good place to get your head around the concept of Oops. We used to use MSWLogo, but while I liked it a lot, my son disdained it as being too uncool or maybe just not commercially relevant.
Hear form you soon, Shelagh
--
This list is intended for educators and students so you are in the right place. The squeak community does include many home schoolers as well. As far as your son's desire to learn C++, this is to be expected. It is unfortunate but the overwhelming culture around him (if he's over 10) will see C++ - or really Java these days - as the cool thing. I have had experience as a language designer and I have a deep interest in education, so I can state with some experience that C++ is not a particularly great place to go. As a parent I can also tell you that you will have to work indirectly to get your child interested in alternatives.
One strategy I use with the kids I work with is to find something they are really interested in doing (say creating and editing movies and sound and pictures), then expose them to many environments such as flash, java, Dreamweaver, Adobe Photoshop, Vegas Video, etc. (most of these offer free trial downloads for 30 days so you don't have to invest a lot of money to gain some experience). It's easier for kids (or anyone) to begin to understand the differences between languages and construction/editing environments when they have the broader perspective gained from using a few different tools. It's also much easier for them to gain appreciation for the deeper principles that will enable them to make judgments when they are embedded in a real practice doing something they are truly interested in. I find most kids go down programming ratholes because they are programming for its own sake rather than to achieve some form of expression (as Lewis Carroll said - "if you don't know where you're going, any road will do"). It's really not about OOP - that's not really the point. OOP is just a particular set of ideas about programming, but it's the means not the end, and the best way to understand the means is working hard towards an end.
So find something he's really interested in and then get some help from this list or elsewhere to see how squeak can be used to achieve that end. Your best bet is if he comes to the conclusion himself that squeak is much better than the alternative (which is usually though not always the case).
Tim Andrews
-----Original Message----- From: squeakland-bounces@squeakland.org [mailto:squeakland-bounces@squeakland.org] On Behalf Of Shelagh Manton Sent: Friday, March 05, 2004 12:00 AM To: Squeakland Subject: [Squeakland] Who is this list mainly intended for?
Hello, I just joined this list today and have been briefly scanning old maessages (or aleast those from last month). Is this list for children using squeak, or for those who hope to help those learning squeak?
I am a home educating parent who stumbled across the concept of small talk in a throw out book from our local library. I was interested enough to search for it on google and came up with squeak eventually. My edest son has aspirations to learning C++. And I thought smalltalk sounded like a good place to get your head around the concept of Oops. We used to use MSWLogo, but while I liked it a lot, my son disdained it as being too uncool or maybe just not commercially relevant.
Hear form you soon, Shelagh
Hi, Shelagh -
Welcome! I saw Tim Andrews already sent you a wonderful response, but I wanted to add my "welcome" and let you know that many home-educating parents are also "listening" and participating here. You're in the right place. And, yes, the list can also be a resource for kids using Squeak, too!
The majority of participants in this list are "less-than-hacker-level" programmers and many are novices, so we are (mostly) using the "Etoy" part of Squeak -- the "tile based" interface allowing kids and adults an "entry" into the ideas of object oriented programming and more to their interest, generally, project making, model making, and simulation building. Having some knowledge with Smalltalk is wonderful, however, but not necessary. I'm delighted you picked up that "discard" from your library...welcome to "Squeakland" and please feel free to use us as a resource.
If you haven't seen, we do offer some online tutorials, a printed glossary and "Etoy Quickstart Guide" to get started and in the "media section" of the squeakland.org site there is a DVD and book available for additional resource. cheers Kim
PS - How old is your eldest son???
Hello, I just joined this list today and have been briefly scanning old maessages (or aleast those from last month). Is this list for children using squeak, or for those who hope to help those learning squeak?
I am a home educating parent who stumbled across the concept of small talk in a throw out book from our local library. I was interested enough to search for it on google and came up with squeak eventually. My edest son has aspirations to learning C++. And I thought smalltalk sounded like a good place to get your head around the concept of Oops. We used to use MSWLogo, but while I liked it a lot, my son disdained it as being too uncool or maybe just not commercially relevant.
Hear form you soon, Shelagh
--
Squeakland mailing list Squeakland@squeakland.org http://squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/squeakland
Welcome! I saw Tim Andrews already sent you a wonderful response, but I wanted to add my "welcome" and let you know that many home-educating parents are also "listening" and participating here. You're in the right place. And, yes, the list can also be a resource for kids using Squeak, too!
The majority of participants in this list are "less-than-hacker-level" programmers and many are novices, so we are (mostly) using the "Etoy" part of Squeak -- the "tile based" interface allowing kids and adults an "entry" into the ideas of object oriented programming and more to their interest, generally, project making, model making, and simulation building. Having some knowledge with Smalltalk is wonderful, however, but not necessary.
Hello Kim,
May I take this thread opportunity to ask a question about what I feel to be a lack in the Squeak community? Why is there not an intermediary list for "less than hacker level" programmers who want, to go beyond the Etoy system and use all the potentialities of squeak? I know of course that the "main list" is open to newbies questions, but I'm afraid it is not really practical. The volume on the main list is huge (more than 150 mails on a week-end, sometimes!),and 90%of the posts don't deal with topics suitable for newbies (in fact, to tell the truth, there are many times when I don't even understand what is the topic!). On the other end, squeakland is fine, but, AFAIK, is almost interested in Etoys and educational issues. I think there is definitively a place for an other list, dealing with squeak as a way to create applications, as an "idea processor" as Alan Kay names it, in order to interest people, who, like me, are not even professional programmers but want to use squeak as a way to express their ideas (I think of course especially about multimedia issues, such as Wonderland), but find frequently difficult the lack of documentation for their level (Yes, I have the books, and I can say many questions remain unanswered!). Such a list would generate automatically, through its archives, a precious documentation..
Of course, nothing forbids somebody (including me) to create such a list independantly at yahoogroups. But I suppose it would be better if it was, more or less, an "official" list...What do you think?
Bye! Rémi
Remi Sussan wrote:
May I take this thread opportunity to ask a question about what I feel to be a lack in the Squeak community? Why is there not an intermediary list for "less than hacker level"
There was a discussion similar to your suggestion of an intermediary list a few weeks ago. It was also suggested to use forums instead of mailing lists for a variety of reasons. I've already set up a forum server, but it still needs a few configuration tweaks before I can make it publicly available.
What I'm thinking of is setting up a forum for more technical questions, which I think would be basically the intermediary level you are suggesting?
Stay tuned for more!
Cheers
Michael
There was a discussion similar to your suggestion of an intermediary list a few weeks ago. It was also suggested to use forums instead of mailing lists for a variety of reasons. I've already set up a forum server, but it still needs a few configuration tweaks before I can make it publicly available.
What I'm thinking of is setting up a forum for more technical questions, which I think would be basically the intermediary level you are
suggesting?
Thanks! I missed this thread. Yes, of course, forums may be as fine as mailing lists (Can they completely replace them? I'm not sure, but I have not a strong point of view on the question). I will of course participate to your forum when it is ready. Yes, the intermdiary level is "more technical" although not much "too technical". I'm especially interested, as I said, in multimedia issues (Wonderland, sounds and music, images...) and using squeak in the writing of multimedia applications, i.e. games, encyclopedia, cultural products, etc. As I frequently say, I didn't came at first to Squeak because it was a smalltalk (although I discovered later how fabulous Smalltalk was), but because it appeared to me as a kind of "open source Director", so to say..
Remi
Hi Remi -
I don't see why this list can't support/participate in the kind of "conversation"/exploration you suggest. I believe many Etoy users are also quite interested in extending capabilities and usage within Squeak -- into things like "Active Essays" and other forms of media that Squeak can support.
My main reason for pointing out that the "squeak.org" site is for a more technical audience is just as you point out -- there's a lot more "traffic" on that list and I would believe 90% of the content there is not of interest or relevant to this readership. However, I do think that threads re creating new Squeak-based "apps" would be of great interest. So, please, folks, let's explore these things.
Personally, I'd rather have "one list" for a variety of threads instead of a number of fora that I'll need to continually check/monitor, etc., but that's just my preference.
thanks, Remi! Kim
Welcome! I saw Tim Andrews already sent you a wonderful response, but I wanted to add my "welcome" and let you know that many home-educating parents are also "listening" and participating here. You're in the right place. And, yes, the list can also be a resource for kids using Squeak, too!
The majority of participants in this list are "less-than-hacker-level" programmers and many are novices, so we are (mostly) using the "Etoy" part of Squeak -- the "tile based" interface allowing kids and adults an "entry" into the ideas of object oriented programming and more to their interest, generally, project making, model making, and simulation building. Having some knowledge with Smalltalk is wonderful, however, but not necessary.
Hello Kim,
May I take this thread opportunity to ask a question about what I feel to be a lack in the Squeak community? Why is there not an intermediary list for "less than hacker level" programmers who want, to go beyond the Etoy system and use all the potentialities of squeak? I know of course that the "main list" is open to newbies questions, but I'm afraid it is not really practical. The volume on the main list is huge (more than 150 mails on a week-end, sometimes!),and 90%of the posts don't deal with topics suitable for newbies (in fact, to tell the truth, there are many times when I don't even understand what is the topic!). On the other end, squeakland is fine, but, AFAIK, is almost interested in Etoys and educational issues. I think there is definitively a place for an other list, dealing with squeak as a way to create applications, as an "idea processor" as Alan Kay names it, in order to interest people, who, like me, are not even professional programmers but want to use squeak as a way to express their ideas (I think of course especially about multimedia issues, such as Wonderland), but find frequently difficult the lack of documentation for their level (Yes, I have the books, and I can say many questions remain unanswered!). Such a list would generate automatically, through its archives, a precious documentation..
Of course, nothing forbids somebody (including me) to create such a list independantly at yahoogroups. But I suppose it would be better if it was, more or less, an "official" list...What do you think?
Bye! Rémi
Squeakland mailing list Squeakland@squeakland.org http://squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/squeakland
Kim,
I wholeheartedly support your suggestion of having only one list.
While I may not necessarily be interested in all discussion threads, we would loose so much with different lists and the energy would get dispersed. As we all know the threads develop organically and there is plenty of insights that I can find at later stages even if at the beginning I was not particularly interested in that thread. One can surely learn great deal listening different perspectives and being aware of different directions.
best, Amela
~~~ Dr. Amela Sadagic Co-Director Partnership for Emerging Learning Environments - PELEgroup www.pelegroup.net ph/cell: 914.224.1276 amela@pelegroup.net
On Tuesday, March 9, 2004, at 11:55 AM, Kim Rose wrote:
Hi Remi -
I don't see why this list can't support/participate in the kind of "conversation"/exploration you suggest. I believe many Etoy users are also quite interested in extending capabilities and usage within Squeak -- into things like "Active Essays" and other forms of media that Squeak can support.
My main reason for pointing out that the "squeak.org" site is for a more technical audience is just as you point out -- there's a lot more "traffic" on that list and I would believe 90% of the content there is not of interest or relevant to this readership. However, I do think that threads re creating new Squeak-based "apps" would be of great interest. So, please, folks, let's explore these things.
Personally, I'd rather have "one list" for a variety of threads instead of a number of fora that I'll need to continually check/monitor, etc., but that's just my preference.
thanks, Remi! Kim
Welcome! I saw Tim Andrews already sent you a wonderful response, but I wanted to add my "welcome" and let you know that many home-educating parents are also "listening" and participating here. You're in the right place. And, yes, the list can also be a resource for kids using Squeak, too!
The majority of participants in this list are "less-than-hacker-level" programmers and many are novices, so we are (mostly) using the "Etoy" part of Squeak -- the "tile based" interface allowing kids and adults an "entry" into the ideas of object oriented programming and more to their interest, generally, project making, model making, and simulation building. Having some knowledge with Smalltalk is wonderful, however, but not necessary.
Hello Kim,
May I take this thread opportunity to ask a question about what I feel to be a lack in the Squeak community? Why is there not an intermediary list for "less than hacker level" programmers who want, to go beyond the Etoy system and use all the potentialities of squeak? I know of course that the "main list" is open to newbies questions, but I'm afraid it is not really practical. The volume on the main list is huge (more than 150 mails on a week-end, sometimes!),and 90%of the posts don't deal with topics suitable for newbies (in fact, to tell the truth, there are many times when I don't even understand what is the topic!). On the other end, squeakland is fine, but, AFAIK, is almost interested in Etoys and educational issues. I think there is definitively a place for an other list, dealing with squeak as a way to create applications, as an "idea processor" as Alan Kay names it, in order to interest people, who, like me, are not even professional programmers but want to use squeak as a way to express their ideas (I think of course especially about multimedia issues, such as Wonderland), but find frequently difficult the lack of documentation for their level (Yes, I have the books, and I can say many questions remain unanswered!). Such a list would generate automatically, through its archives, a precious documentation..
Of course, nothing forbids somebody (including me) to create such a list independantly at yahoogroups. But I suppose it would be better if it was, more or less, an "official" list...What do you think?
Bye! Rémi
Squeakland mailing list Squeakland@squeakland.org http://squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/squeakland
Squeakland mailing list Squeakland@squeakland.org http://squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/squeakland
My main reason for pointing out that the "squeak.org" site is for a more technical audience is just as you point out -- there's a lot more "traffic" on that list and I would believe 90% of the content there is not of interest or relevant to this readership. However, I do think that threads re creating new Squeak-based "apps" would be of great interest. So, please, folks, let's explore these things.
Personally, I'd rather have "one list" for a variety of threads instead of a number of fora that I'll need to continually check/monitor, etc., but that's just my preference.
Great! if indeed we may discuss Squeak applications here on Squeakland, a new mailing list may in fact be unnecessary (especially if Michael provides forums on technical questions). I think indeed Squeakland "atmosphere" is much more favorable for discussion between "newbies", or even non-professional programmers . Don't get me wrong, I have always found people on the developper list fine and helpful; but the level is obviously very high, and I frequenly don't even dare to ask a question, even less start a discussion, and I'm sure I'm not alone in this case!
Bye! Remi
squeakland@lists.squeakfoundation.org
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Amela Sadagic -
Kim Rose -
Michael Rueger -
Remi Sussan -
Shelagh Manton -
Tim Andrews