squeakland August 2003

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RE: [Squeakland] Logo vs. Squeak
by Alan Kay 15 Aug '03

15 Aug '03

HI Mikael -- Thank you very much for your email. I have several somewhat overlapping reactions to this. First, I think it's great, and is a great approach in general -- especially for early learning stages and for explanations. The idea of using a comic book style has come up several times over the years, but we've never pursued it -- and it's terrific to see what you've done so far. Second, my larger opinion about this is pretty similar to my larger opinion about the place and relationship of comics to more text-based writing. On the one hand, I think comics are an art form all of their own, and they can have quite a bit of evocative power. On the other hand, I think there is something special and unique about "disembodied text" and what is required to read it and produce one's own internal realizations of the ideas. So I'm always very interested in helping children learn the harder stuff because I think quite a bit of it is really good for them. In the world of programming, we have more than one kind of goal for the endusers, and this definitely influences the kind of designs we put before them. Two of the most important partially overlapping goals are (a) as a productivity tool, and (b) as a tool to shape the learner's mind. For (a) we would generally try to maximize quick success in a project, often by putting in lots of built-in functionality that can be hooked together to make the end result. For (b) say, for math learning, we might rather want to have fewer and more primitive building blocks and try to motivate harder, more difficult work and play from the learner because our main goal is not just getting a project done, but to effect a real and often qualitative change in the learner's mind. These two areas overlap a bit, because a lot of the motivation in both areas for the enduser is "reasonable success for reasonable effort" -- so it would be ridiculous to make (b) painful, or to have stupid gratuitous difficulties that have nothing to do with the learning we're hoping for. But I do think that a lot of making a good (b) is about "finding good difficulties" whose surmounting will help the learner and motivating the learner to surmount them. And, in the end, the productivity tool approach in (a) starts to fall down because it is very difficult to provide all the plugin features (and very little deeper learning is happening while the features do cover the space). An interesting example for me is Photoshop. It has a zillion features and is very useful. But, the user never learns anything about image filtering and is simply blocked if the filter they want isn't there. Mitchel Resnick and his group at MIT are doing a system for teenagers in Squeak (called Scratch) that tries to bridge this gap by e.g. combining the use of filters and the learning of the "computer math" of filters (by making their own filters from the start) as the kids make projects. In other words, the idea here is to keep the children "in the conversation" of the tools they are learning, not to "help them to death" by providing opaque features. This seems very good and important to me, and is an important part of how real computer literacy will eventually be learned. These transitions are part of the ongoing conversations about how to help learners move from one comfort zone to a further higher level of sophistication. The relation of picture books for the very young to comic books and other picture and text books to mostly text books is a possible model to look at. The relation of your work to "computer math" seems quite important to me because, at least right now, the target for most children is a visual scene and objects that are usually manipulated kinesthetically. A lot of the power of the model is in symbology of one kind or another, and it is also helpful to have comments and other expressions in one's native language. This begs for a little more form and organization. I'm very interested to see what the next stage of these ideas will be. Cheers, Alan At 9:27 AM +0200 8/14/03, Mikael Kindborg wrote: >Hi all. > >Very interesting reading! Thanks for cc-ing me Ken. > >Below follows a few comments on topics mentioned in the discussion. > >At 07:29 2003-08-09 -0800, Alan Kay wrote: >>Hi Ken -- >> >>There are definitely a lot of good ideas in ToonTalk -- and, as you >>know, I've been interested in various kinds of iconic programming >>for many years. I think some nifty combination of iconic and >>symbolic elements (yet to be discovered) will indeed be part of a >>much better authoring system for all. >> >>Your knot example is a good one, but so is the fact that you used >>English to state your case below. I think you would agree that a >>combination of English and pictures and actual manipulatives would >>be even better, just as quite a bit of math is difficult to express >>only in pictures, though pictures and manipulatives are a great way >>to start off. > >As Ken mentioned I have been studying the use of comics for >programming. A key aspect >of comics is that texts and pictures are tightly integrated. Text >and other symbolic >signs are presented in the context of the pictures. This can create >a very direct experience >for the reader/programmer who has become familiar with such visuals. >The pictures can >show concrete objects and actions, texts and symbols can show more >abstract concecepts >and actions. > >I have an example in my thesis that illustrates how an eToys type of >script using turtle >graphics might be visualised as a comic strip: >http://www.ida.liu.se/~mikki/comics/fig-squeak-rocket-2.gif >This example is just a mockup, but it shows how a symbolic >representation can be >combined with an iconic representation (the rocket and the "ghost >image" showing >the previous position of the rocket). > >I did a Java-based implementation of a programming tool that uses >comics. Here is >an example from the thesis that illustrates what a program looks like: >http://www.ida.liu.se/~mikki/comics/fig-prog-space1-rocket.gif >The top four frames a different looks for the rocket, the two strips >that follows are >two of four events for steering the rocket (the system has no turtle >graphics). >I am currently implementing a nicer version of the tool in Squeak (I >do regret using >Java) that hopefully will include turtle graphics. > >One interesting finding of the thesis is that the visual language of >comics can >can be used to overcome some of the limitations of graphical rewrite rules, >while maintaining a direct mapping between the program and the runtime result. >See e.g. pp. 288-294 in the theis, which is available at: >http://www.ida.liu.se/~mikki/comics/ > >At 19:28 2003-08-09 +0100, Ken Kahn wrote: >>Hi Anindita and Alan - >> >>You both responded to my message using the word "icon". I think that word >>refers to a different set of ideas than those I'm trying to promote. Would >>you say that in Super Mario Brothers that Mario is an icon? That the >>mushrooms he eats are icons? I don't think that is how the players think >>about things. They are in a virtual world and a mushroom is an object in >>that world, not an icon that stands for something in the world. In games and >>in ToonTalk there is a suspension of disbelief that doesn't happen in iconic >>systems. > >It gets easier to understand the different properties of signs when >using "icon" >in the semiotic sense, a sign that looks similar to that which it >signifies. (So >called icons in user interfaces are sometimes symbolic signs, they >have an arbitrary >relation to that which is signified.) A very interesting class of >signs are indexical signs. >Such signs "points to" that which is signified. Using signs in the >direct context >of pictures, such as in comics, is an example of how symbolic signs can >take on indexical and even iconic qualities. A voice balloon, for >example, gives >a very direct impression of speech for the reader who knows the signs system. >Another example is motion markers such as speed lines. > >>Alan brings up a very important topic - is the ideal system multi-modal so >>that users/programmers/players can switch between different ways of seeing >>and thinking about pieces of their program? Would it be best if they could >>easily switch between using pictures, English, demonstrations, and some >>precise notation (like math or Logo) on a fine-grained basis? I'd love to >>see more research on this but I'm not sure the result would be optimal. I'm >>afraid one might lose the simplicity of mono-modal systems. And in the case >>of ToonTalk I wouldn't want to introduce anything that interferes with the >>fantasy of being in a virtual world. > >I think that the problem is that most programming languages are mono-modal. >It is for example well known that one learns best when using several senses. >In my view comics is an example of the theories of Piaget and Bruner at work, >using a mix of symbolic, visual/iconc, and perhaps even "enactive" >signs (such as >speed lines). > >At 19:55 2003-08-09 +0200, Andreas Raab wrote: >>[Text deleted] >> >>But here's something to look at which I think is pretty darn cool: >> >>http://isgwww.cs.uni-magdeburg.de/games/start/jive.html >>http://isgwww.cs.uni-magdeburg.de/games/start/kindervorlesung_pics/kv_grins. >>jpg >> >>It's in German (sorry for that but it has been made for German kids ;) and >>covers a lecture on "How to make Computer Games" which was given by my >>friend and collegue Maic Masuch (who is professor for computer games at the >>Univ. of Magdeburg) and who is very interested in scalable media >>environments for his students. The system you see there is called JIVE and >>has been done by Jana Hintze based on Croquet and Tweak. > >This looks very impressive. I especially like how the pictures of >the characters >and the thought bubbles are integrated into the script. Somewhat like comics! >I think that the kind of program representation shown here could be >developed further >by using elements from comics. Do you (Andreas) think that the >people at Magdeburg >would be interested in this? If so, could you hint me at who to contact? > >Best, Micke --

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SqueakFest swiki - up and running
by Kim Rose 14 Aug '03

14 Aug '03

-- Hi, folks - Some of you have experienced difficulties in accessing and/or uploading to our newly created "SqueakFest SuperSwiki" http://squeakland.org:8080/SqueakFest/1 We wanted to let you know that we *believe* these problems are now solved.... please feel free to access and add! If you should experience problems please let us (Michael) know... michael(a)squeakland.org cheers, Kim

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Book Information: Powerful Ideas...
by Jimmie Houchin 14 Aug '03

14 Aug '03

My wife and I homeschool our children. How appropriate or good would the book "Powerful Ideas in the Classroom - Using Squeak to Enhance Math and Science Learning" by BJ Allen-Conn and Kim Rose with Afterword by Alan Kay be for homeschoolers? What kind of knowledge or expections are made of the teacher? Is it appropriate for single students or does it desire a class? Any information regarding the book and homeschooling greatly appreciated. Jimmie Houchin

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Book and DVD
by Jimmie Houchin 14 Aug '03

14 Aug '03

I was looking at placing an order for the Squeakers DVD. While browsing the site I see that the book "Powerful Ideas in the Classroom - Using Squeak to Enhance Math and Science Learning" by BJ Allen-Conn and Kim Rose with Afterword by Alan Kay is supposed to be released in August 2003. Is it on schedule? If it will be soon I'll wait on the DVD and order both at the same time. If not I'll go ahead and get the DVD. Thanks, Jimmie Houchin

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RE: [Squeakland] Book Information: Powerful Ideas...
by Mitchell, David [CC] 14 Aug '03

14 Aug '03

I wanted to add my excitement as a homeschooling parent and old-time Squeaker. I'll be placing my order on Squeakland right after your announcement. We have a homeschooling club and I was looking for some modeling projects to do during our science activity days. I have read the StarLogo book (which I liked) but I am really excited to use Squeak. --David Mitchell -----Original Message----- From: Kim Rose [mailto:Kim.Rose@viewpointsresearch.org] Sent: Thu 8/14/2003 11:27 AM To: Jimmie Houchin; squeakland(a)squeakland.org Cc: Subject: Re: [Squeakland] Book Information: Powerful Ideas... Hi, again, Jimmie - We believe the book *will* be of value to homeschoolers such as you and your family! We are aware of the need for materials for homeschoolers that can offer "good practices" of integrating the use of computers into learning activities. The book is intended to serve as an introduction to the Etoy component (tile interface) of Squeak and it includes 12 "on-computer" projects and several off-computer "excursions" that build upon each other in a sequence. We show connections to the math or science concepts the projects are teaching/using. We assume the audience/reader to be a newcomer to Squeak/Etoys. The book/projects do not necessarily desire or require a classroom (althogh we have titled it "...in the classroom"). The projects can be completed by a single learner or a small group. We hope it will serve to introduce you to what might be possible within this learning environment and be a launching pad for you to create additional projects of your own. cheers, Kim At 11:09 AM -0500 8/14/03, Jimmie Houchin wrote: >My wife and I homeschool our children. > >How appropriate or good would the book >"Powerful Ideas in the Classroom - Using Squeak to Enhance Math and >Science Learning" by BJ Allen-Conn and Kim Rose with Afterword by >Alan Kay >be for homeschoolers? > >What kind of knowledge or expections are made of the teacher? >Is it appropriate for single students or does it desire a class? > >Any information regarding the book and homeschooling greatly appreciated. > >Jimmie Houchin > >_______________________________________________ >Squeakland mailing list >Squeakland(a)squeakland.org >http://squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/squeakland -- _______________________________________________ Squeakland mailing list Squeakland(a)squeakland.org http://squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/squeakland

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Scalability and the HyperCard stages
by MarkSundberg 14 Aug '03

14 Aug '03

I feel this discussion is really critical to future acceptance and use of Squeak as a viable alternative to other environments. To make Squeak become more than an interesting footnote in computing history or simply a wonderland for driven programmers/developers, its got to become accessible to non-technical types: children, school kids, teachers, business people, administrators. How many teachers are going to push for its use if they don't know how to use it? How many parents are going to expose their kids to it and demand its use in schools if they don't have a clue about it? Yes, no matter what, you are going to get the odd lot here and there that are deeply interested and will make the time out of their already overtaxed schedules to learn Squeak and want to promote it and there's going to be those that are inspired by demonstrations by Alan Kay and others. But that's still virtually nil, we are talking in terms of thousands when what's needed are tens or hundreds of thousands and even millions. The concept listed for HyperCard (I have no experience with it) sounds really excellent and would seem to fit in with the idea of a Squeak that grows with the user. Something easy to get into initially, as are the E-Toys (but that isn't going to appeal to many adults) that doesn't require much in the way of programming but still allows tangible results. In my experience people really like to learn and more so when there is a reward for learning. When its something they can readily grasp not only how to do it but why. When they can see the reward waiting for them and at least parts of the route to getting to it. Then they will learn to take more chances and have faith the leap won't drop them in a great abyss. Eventually, they can learn that great lesson, that there really isn't any great abyss for them to fall into. That they can define the parameters of their own journeys and even those of the destination they seek. The concept that users can be lured into learning by the offer of greater ability or even greater coolness is not one to ignore. Nothing is likely to have so much success as those lures. Its always easier to pull something than push it. Its even easier to provide handholds and let it pull itself along. Mark Sundberg, a Squeaky Wheel.

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RE: [Squeakland] Don't forget about Boxer
by Mankovsky, Sheine 13 Aug '03

13 Aug '03

I've been following this discussion. My question is: will kids learn better as a result? For me, Squeak remains a research system that serves several purposes. And, as I've said before, the present is a place holder for the future. So, as Alan has said (or something like) challenge yourself to do the work to make the future that you imagine, happen. It's rather academic to me whether Logo is better or worse than Squeak. I've already admitted to being a profound tech illiterata. What I'm interested in, is the creation of rich opportunities for substantive learning that can be provided for kids--and adults. Keep workin' on all of 'em because I get my kicks out of getting them into places where kids can actually use them. If I had to comment on one feature of Squeak that is comprehensible to me it would be that Squeak is open source. You can help yourself to as much as you like and no one will accuse you of greed. However, you are obligated to contribute to others when you create something worthwhile. So, create something worthwhile, and make your contribution. And speaking of good books, I checked my local library on-line catalogue to see whether the catalogue is as interesting as Amazon.com. You're right again, Alan. Searching titles on Amazon.com is much deeper, a lot more interesting--and colourful. I quite enjoyed considering the choices with a different perspective since you offered your comments a while ago. I suppose one sometimes mistakes a value for just plain prejudice. Sheine > -----Original Message----- > From: Alan Kay [SMTP:Alan.Kay@squeakland.org] > Sent: Saturday, August 09, 2003 3:12 PM > To: diegogomezdeck(a)consultar.com; squeakland(a)squeakland.org > Subject: [Squeakland] Don't forget about Boxer > > As long as we are being ecumenical, don't forget about Andy diSessa > and his (and earlier Hal Abelson's) Boxer work that has been going on > for many years at Berkeley. A recent deep book about this is: > > http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0262041804/qid=1060452055/sr > =1-1/ref=sr_1_1/102-0148370-7612902?v=glance&s=books > > There are many great ideas and valuable insights here. > > Cheers, > > Alan > -- > _______________________________________________ > Squeakland mailing list > Squeakland(a)squeakland.org > http://squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/squeakland

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Logo vs. Squeak
by diegogomezdeck＠consultar.com 13 Aug '03

13 Aug '03

Hi guys... Preparing the content in Spanish for Small-Land I found one question I'm not able to respond. "Why use Squeak instead of Logo?" I know almost nothing about Logo, but from my (limited) point of view I think the key difference is the Object Orientation. The Object paradigm is, imho, a better way to describe the reality than the "Structured way" used by Logo. Also I can find some roots in some "knowledge representation" theories (the pair object-subject). The "dark" point with my thought is I'm not able to see if this argument is valid for teachers/educators. I'd like to hear your opinions. Diego Gomez Deck http://www.small-land.org PS: Anyone knows the Papert's feeling about Squeak? I guess it's good (based on the Squeaker movie :))

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[ENH] eToys: new turnToward command
by diegogomezdeck＠consultar.com 09 Aug '03

09 Aug '03

Hi, Attached is a changeset with a new etoy-command named #turnForward. In Bob's SuperSwiki you can find a project (including this changeset) with an example of use of the new command (http://209.143.91.36/super/625). Tested in 3.5final and 3.6beta. Enjoy it! Diego ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Change Set: eToys-TurnToward-dgd Date: 8 August 2003 Author: Diego Gomez Deck <DiegoGomezDeck(a)ConsultAr.com> New eToy command named #turnToward in category motion was added. The behavior is simple: the receiver will turn in the direction of the given object. Changes: - Basically the behavior in #moveToward: was refactorized. - The translation template and the Spanish translation are updated. To Check: - The former #moveToward: command was suppressed when the eToyFriendly preference was set. The new command is also suppressed in this situation but the goal of the decision is not clear.

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RE: [Squeakland] Logo vs. Squeak
by RATZEL, MARSHA 08 Aug '03

08 Aug '03

I am determined to figure this out. I'm new to both Logo and Squeak and thought I'd be a perfect guinea pig to start out with both. Almost an action research project with 2 of my sections of 7th graders this year. I really feel in over my head with Squeak because there's just not much documentation....but if you really think about it, kids never read documentation. It's only us old foggies that need the documentation!!!!! I'm scared to step off the dock and plunge in. But what the heck. It can't be a bad thing even if we can't do anything. It's the process I keep telling myself and enjoying the journey. I'm definitely going to include a reflective element in this grand experiment, though. I'm setting up blogs for all my kids to talk about what they're experiencing, their frustrations, their victories and hopefully adding in that critique piece unique to the blogging world. It should also help me collect valuable student work/thinking as evidence to examine for if it's worth it or not. marsha -----Original Message----- From: diegogomezdeck(a)consultar.com [mailto:diegogomezdeck@consultar.com] Sent: Friday, August 08, 2003 7:02 AM To: squeakland(a)squeakland.org Subject: [Squeakland] Logo vs. Squeak Hi guys... Preparing the content in Spanish for Small-Land I found one question I'm not able to respond. "Why use Squeak instead of Logo?" I know almost nothing about Logo, but from my (limited) point of view I think the key difference is the Object Orientation. The Object paradigm is, imho, a better way to describe the reality than the "Structured way" used by Logo. Also I can find some roots in some "knowledge representation" theories (the pair object-subject). The "dark" point with my thought is I'm not able to see if this argument is valid for teachers/educators. I'd like to hear your opinions. Diego Gomez Deck http://www.small-land.org PS: Anyone knows the Papert's feeling about Squeak? I guess it's good (based on the Squeaker movie :)) _______________________________________________ Squeakland mailing list Squeakland(a)squeakland.org http://squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/squeakland

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squeakland August 2003