squeakland July 2003

squeakland@lists.squeakfoundation.org

28 participants
34 discussions

Yo no se Croquet
by Doug Wolfgram 08 Jul '03

08 Jul '03

I want to start playing with Croquet. I know that development is in slow mode right now, but is the original version too buggy to play with? Can I get it somewhere? I found Bert's binaries for Linux and will try that as well. Cheers! Doug

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RE: [Squeakland] Squeak 'non-starter' in U.K. schools?
by Mankovsky, Sheine 08 Jul '03

08 Jul '03

Jim, you expressed some important concerns about the direction that public education is taking in the UK. I have been witnessing similar stuff in the last five or so years, when I've been really paying attention, in my own community and in Canada generally. I decided to do what I can for as long as I can. For me the present is just a place holder for the future. So, if I get only part way, maybe others, or even one other will continue along the route. In other words, that I don't reach my destination, doesn't mean I don't travel. I believe you mentioned in an earlier note that you were carrying on lunch hour sessions, or intended to start them, at your school. That would be very helpful for changing things in the U.K. eventually. The power of one can be very strong indeed. In fact, there may not be another like you in the entire UK. That would make you not wrong, but unique:) Your comments were thought provoking as well, Alan. I'll just add my thoughts on the bookstores/libraries as learning locations. Sure there is learning available in bookstores and libraries, in fact everywhere. However, if I were asked for my preference, I would advocate for libraries because of my individual value system, and on what it is based. I don't remember my parents buying me a single book when I was a child. Not one. However, I started going to the public library with my Dad from the age of three. He sat at a table and read books in Yiddish, and I sat in a chair and read English magazines. Or maybe I thought I was reading... It was a community supported public Jewish library. He had brought the value of using a library for learning from Poland where there were similar places in the town where he lived. When I was five I raced to the neighbourhood library a few blocks from my home to get a card and borrow my own books. I still recall the excitement, and then the disappointment when the librarian informed me that the rule was that I would have to keep the books overnight before coming back for more. My point is there is a value statement in supporting a library rather than a bookstore, or a bookstore rather than a library. I was surprised that your reading list is a bookstore rather than a libarary because I thought you were a strong advocate of public access to books via local public libraries. I'd be interested in hearing more on how you came to deciding on that approach. Sheine > -----Original Message----- > From: Alan Kay [SMTP:Alan.Kay@squeakland.org] > Sent: Monday, July 07, 2003 12:44 PM > To: Jim Ford; Squeakland > Subject: Re: [Squeakland] Squeak 'non-starter' in U.K. schools? > > Hi Jim -- > > At 10:55 AM +0100 7/7/03, Jim Ford wrote: > >Hi, > > > >I'm a science technician in a U.K. Independant (non-State) Secondary > School. > >I've had experience of several programming languages (including Logo) and > >when I came accross Squeak became a convert to the concept of it being an > >excellent learning tool - not only for children, but adults as well. > > > >I've tried introducing Squeak to science teachers, but encountered the > >problem that I've come across with other ideas I've had, which is: if > it's > >not in 'The National Curriculum', it won't get taught. > > The US is definitely moving in a similar direction: towards extremely > rigid national curricula. > > > As has been mentioned > >many times in the U.K. national papers, our schools are so focused on > >gaining good published examination results - the so-called 'League > Tables' - > >(in spite of the protestations of some Head Teachers), that _nothing_ > >outside 'The Curriculum' has the remotest chance of being taught. The > >pressure on teaching staff to 'Deliver the Curriculum' is such that > whilst > >they may show interest in Squeak, there is not the tiniest slot in the > >teaching day for it to be introduced. > > > >I believe that as long as the U.K. education system remains tied to the > >stultifying influence of examination orientated 'League Tables', > innovative > >ideas such as Squeak will never be introduced, unless (as is _most_ > unlikely) > >as officially part of the National Curriculum. > > There are various ways to look at this. In the US, it's really a > mixed bag, because the "official curricula" are poorly taught and > learned, and so, looking on the bright side of things, it's good that > important subjects like music, art, and real math and science aren't > official and thus don't get ruined for the children. However, I can't > quite get myself to be that happy about the current situation, since > the names of important and interesting subjects such as math and > science are ruined in the children's eyes, and this taint can remain > for many years. > > When we started this effort many years ago in the 60s -- inspired by > Seymour Papert -- pretty much everyone then thought that most gains > would be somewhat subversive and outside of formal schooling, and > that the advent of personal computers and the Internet (both of which > were well underway) would provide something more like nonschool > books, libraries, bookstores, etc., from which anyone could learn by > themselves and in clubs with others. It is likely that this set of > envisioned processes will be what is required -- and to have quite a > bit of child to child mentoring -- in order for any real changes to > happen in the next decade. > > By the way, in the US at least, things would be helped tremendously > if scientists and mathematicians were much more strongly involved in > elementary schooling (and in clubs etc). This is one of our biggest > problems: not enough people who actually understand the real content > are involved and want to be involved. > > Cheers, > > Alan > > > > >I would be interested in comments on the above from those involved in the > >U.K. education system! > > > >Regards: Jim Ford > > > >-- > >Spam poison - don't use! ---> botulin(a)watford53.freeserve.co.uk <--- > >_______________________________________________ > >Squeakland mailing list > >Squeakland(a)squeakland.org > >http://squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/squeakland > > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Squeakland mailing list > Squeakland(a)squeakland.org > http://squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/squeakland

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RE: [Squeakland] Squeak 'non-starter' in U.K. schools?
by Mankovsky, Sheine 08 Jul '03

08 Jul '03

Thanks for the clarification, Alan. Best, Sheine > -----Original Message----- > From: Alan Kay [SMTP:Alan.Kay@squeakland.org] > Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2003 12:36 AM > To: Mankovsky, Sheine; Jim Ford; Squeakland > Subject: RE: [Squeakland] Squeak 'non-starter' in U.K. schools? > > Hi Sheine -- > > I didn't actually decide on the bookstore approach to the reading > list. The list is many years old (and probably needs updating). The > kind folks who volunteered to do the new website took a lot of > materials and decided to provide secondary and tertiary links to most > of the stuff. I think this helps a lot and provides more depth to the > site. The links to amazon are quite helpful even if you don't buy a > book, since more can be found out about the books if you are > interested. So I think this was a good idea. I find I use amazon > about 60% of the time for the same purpose: to find out about a book > rather than buy it. Historically, I grew up poor and thus virtually > all of my reading was from the free public libraries -- so I'm a big > supporter of this way of learning. In particular, I have very fond > memories of the wonderfully generous folks at the Queensborough > Public Library in Jamaica, Queens, who really went all out to help > the young teenage me to find out about things I was interested in. A > lot of our interest in making the Internet and keeping Squeak free > came from my experiences with free public libraries. > > Cheers, > > Alan > > At 10:56 PM -0400 7/7/03, Mankovsky, Sheine wrote: > >Jim, you expressed some important concerns about the direction that > public > >education is taking in the UK. I have been witnessing similar stuff in > the > >last five or so years, when I've been really paying attention, in my own > >community and in Canada generally. I decided to do what I can for as > long > >as I can. For me the present is just a place holder for the future. So, > if > >I get only part way, maybe others, or even one other will continue along > the > >route. In other words, that I don't reach my destination, doesn't mean I > >don't travel. I believe you mentioned in an earlier note that you were > >carrying on lunch hour sessions, or intended to start them, at your > school. > >That would be very helpful for changing things in the U.K. eventually. > The > >power of one can be very strong indeed. In fact, there may not be > another > >like you in the entire UK. That would make you not wrong, but unique:) > > > >Your comments were thought provoking as well, Alan. I'll just add my > >thoughts on the bookstores/libraries as learning locations. Sure there > is > >learning available in bookstores and libraries, in fact everywhere. > >However, if I were asked for my preference, I would advocate for > libraries > >because of my individual value system, and on what it is based. I don't > >remember my parents buying me a single book when I was a child. Not one. > >However, I started going to the public library with my Dad from the age > of > >three. He sat at a table and read books in Yiddish, and I sat in a chair > >and read English magazines. Or maybe I thought I was reading... It was a > >community supported public Jewish library. He had brought the value of > >using a library for learning from Poland where there were similar places > in > >the town where he lived. When I was five I raced to the neighbourhood > >library a few blocks from my home to get a card and borrow my own books. > I > >still recall the excitement, and then the disappointment when the > librarian > >informed me that the rule was that I would have to keep the books > overnight > >before coming back for more. My point is there is a value statement in > >supporting a library rather than a bookstore, or a bookstore rather than > a > >library. I was surprised that your reading list is a bookstore rather > than > >a libarary because I thought you were a strong advocate of public access > to > >books via local public libraries. I'd be interested in hearing more on > how > >you came to deciding on that approach. > > > >Sheine > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Alan Kay [SMTP:Alan.Kay@squeakland.org] > >> Sent: Monday, July 07, 2003 12:44 PM > >> To: Jim Ford; Squeakland > >> Subject: Re: [Squeakland] Squeak 'non-starter' in U.K. schools? > > > > >> Hi Jim -- > >> > >> At 10:55 AM +0100 7/7/03, Jim Ford wrote: > >> >Hi, > >> > > >> >I'm a science technician in a U.K. Independant (non-State) Secondary > >> School. > >> >I've had experience of several programming languages (including Logo) > and > >> >when I came accross Squeak became a convert to the concept of it > being an > >> >excellent learning tool - not only for children, but adults as well. > >> > > >> >I've tried introducing Squeak to science teachers, but encountered > the > >> >problem that I've come across with other ideas I've had, which is: if > >> it's > >> >not in 'The National Curriculum', it won't get taught. > >> > >> The US is definitely moving in a similar direction: towards extremely > >> rigid national curricula. > >> > >> > As has been mentioned > >> >many times in the U.K. national papers, our schools are so focused on > >> >gaining good published examination results - the so-called 'League > >> Tables' - > >> >(in spite of the protestations of some Head Teachers), that _nothing_ > >> >outside 'The Curriculum' has the remotest chance of being taught. The > >> >pressure on teaching staff to 'Deliver the Curriculum' is such that > >> whilst > >> >they may show interest in Squeak, there is not the tiniest slot in > the > >> >teaching day for it to be introduced. > >> > > >> >I believe that as long as the U.K. education system remains tied to > the > >> >stultifying influence of examination orientated 'League Tables', > >> innovative > >> >ideas such as Squeak will never be introduced, unless (as is _most_ > >> unlikely) > >> >as officially part of the National Curriculum. > >> > >> There are various ways to look at this. In the US, it's really a > >> mixed bag, because the "official curricula" are poorly taught and > >> learned, and so, looking on the bright side of things, it's good that > >> important subjects like music, art, and real math and science aren't > >> official and thus don't get ruined for the children. However, I can't > >> quite get myself to be that happy about the current situation, since > >> the names of important and interesting subjects such as math and > >> science are ruined in the children's eyes, and this taint can remain > >> for many years. > >> > >> When we started this effort many years ago in the 60s -- inspired by > >> Seymour Papert -- pretty much everyone then thought that most gains > >> would be somewhat subversive and outside of formal schooling, and > >> that the advent of personal computers and the Internet (both of which > >> were well underway) would provide something more like nonschool > >> books, libraries, bookstores, etc., from which anyone could learn by > >> themselves and in clubs with others. It is likely that this set of > >> envisioned processes will be what is required -- and to have quite a > >> bit of child to child mentoring -- in order for any real changes to > >> happen in the next decade. > >> > >> By the way, in the US at least, things would be helped tremendously > >> if scientists and mathematicians were much more strongly involved in > >> elementary schooling (and in clubs etc). This is one of our biggest > >> problems: not enough people who actually understand the real content > >> are involved and want to be involved. > >> > >> Cheers, > >> > >> Alan > >> > >> > > >> >I would be interested in comments on the above from those involved in > the > >> >U.K. education system! > >> > > >> >Regards: Jim Ford > >> > > >> >-- > >> >Spam poison - don't use! ---> botulin(a)watford53.freeserve.co.uk <--- > >> >_______________________________________________ > >> >Squeakland mailing list > >> >Squeakland(a)squeakland.org > >> >http://squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/squeakland > >> > >> > >> -- > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Squeakland mailing list > >> Squeakland(a)squeakland.org > >> http://squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/squeakland > > > --

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Squeak 'non-starter' in U.K. schools?
by Jim Ford 07 Jul '03

07 Jul '03

Hi, I'm a science technician in a U.K. Independant (non-State) Secondary School. I've had experience of several programming languages (including Logo) and when I came accross Squeak became a convert to the concept of it being an excellent learning tool - not only for children, but adults as well. I've tried introducing Squeak to science teachers, but encountered the problem that I've come across with other ideas I've had, which is: if it's not in 'The National Curriculum', it won't get taught. As has been mentioned many times in the U.K. national papers, our schools are so focused on gaining good published examination results - the so-called 'League Tables' - (in spite of the protestations of some Head Teachers), that _nothing_ outside 'The Curriculum' has the remotest chance of being taught. The pressure on teaching staff to 'Deliver the Curriculum' is such that whilst they may show interest in Squeak, there is not the tiniest slot in the teaching day for it to be introduced. I believe that as long as the U.K. education system remains tied to the stultifying influence of examination orientated 'League Tables', innovative ideas such as Squeak will never be introduced, unless (as is _most_ unlikely) as officially part of the National Curriculum. I would be interested in comments on the above from those involved in the U.K. education system! Regards: Jim Ford -- Spam poison - don't use! ---> botulin(a)watford53.freeserve.co.uk <---

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RE: "transparent skin" (new user Q)
by Alan Kay 07 Jul '03

07 Jul '03

Nancy -- I think what happened is that we changed over to a new website for Squeakland about two weeks ago and modernized a few things but didn't catch up to all of them in the tutorials. We'll get the tutorials redone and more usable over the next week. For now you could try a new tutorial that is in HTML, so you can print it out from your browser. It's also on the Squeakland site at: http://www.squeakland.org/school/drive_a_car/html/Drivecar12.html Comments, suggestions and criticism welcome ... Cheers, Alan At 2:28 AM -0400 7/7/03, Nancy Head wrote: >Actually, both Ned's and Alan's suggestions worked for me. Thanks to both!! >:) > >At this point, I don't yet understand the distinction between "painting *on* >the working area itself" vs. "making a separate object to go *in* the >working area"... but maybe that's not critical to the user for this >tutorial?? > >The advantage to Alan's suggestion is that you wouldn't have to explain >accessing the correct "halo," and "what is a 'halo' anyhow?" to a new user. >(I easily figured it out... but it was not very clear from Ned's >explanation... but I'm also not sure how to improve upon what he said to >me.) > >The advantage to Ned's suggestion is that the user doesn't need to keep >clicking on the "paintbrush" icon, then "Save" button, then "yellow arrow," >then "paintbrush," etc. to keep toggling back and forth between instructions >and workspace. > > >Perhaps a solution might be to add a button in the tutorial window >(instructions) that will do the same as selecting the "paint" halo for the >"Working area" without explaining how to access this manually. That can come >in a later tutorial, if the main goal is just to show how the tools work. At >the end of the tutorial you could show how to use the "Navigator" bar to >bring up the "Paint" tool for more practice. > >In other words, change the order of the tasks a little in the tutorial so >the beginning focuses on using the Paint tool (which is the main focus >anyway) by "automating" the part where the workspace is accessed. At the end >of the tutorial, show how to bring up the Paint tool via the Navigator bar. >At this point the user will no longer need to "read" the tutorial so the >"skin" may not be a problem (so long as the user is told to "Keep" or "Toss" >in order to escape the "skin"). > > >On to the next tutorial... :) > >Nancy > > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: squeak-dev-bounces(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org >> [mailto:squeak-dev-bounces@lists.squeakfoundation.org]On Behalf Of Ned >> Konz >> Sent: Monday, July 07, 2003 1:25 AM >> To: The general-purpose Squeak developers list >> Subject: Re: "transparent skin" (new user Q) >> >> >> On Sunday 06 July 2003 09:45 pm, Alan Kay wrote: >> > I think what Nancy needs to know is that you terminate painting >> > (and thus get rid of the translucent skin) by clicking on the >> > "Keep" button (to keep your drawing) or on the "Toss" button to get >> > out without saving your drawing. >> >> Right. But then you can't follow the tutorial as easily. >> >> > The problem is that (at least in my current plugin) the preference >> > is set to have the translucent skin cover the entire screen -- and >> > this effectively prevents her from going to the next page of the >> > tutorial. The tutorial should either be in a flap, or the skin >> > should not be full screen. This seems to be a new problem, the skin >> > used to not come up full screen. >> >> The preference "unlimitedPaintArea" seems to be on (at least in my >> Squeakland image). >> >> And unfortunately, this preference seems to be global, rather than >> per-project. >> >> But when it's off, the skin is still too big to hit the buttons. >> >> > Ned's suggestion below will not quite work, in that you would be >> > painting *on* the working area itself rather than making a separate >> > object to go *in* the working area. >> >> Ah, right. >> >> Sorry to mislead anyone. > > >> -- >> Ned Konz >> http://bike-nomad.com >> GPG key ID: BEEA7EFE >> >> --

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RE: [Squeakland] Squeak 'non-starter' in U.K. schools?
by Andreas Raab 07 Jul '03

07 Jul '03

Hi Christopher, Thanks, this URL worked. I've been looking at the problem and (unfortunately) there's a tiny bit of magic needed to make this work since the center of rotation is not accessible for scripts (it really should). Fortunately, there is a way of rotating objects around a "fixed point" - namely the origin of the playfield we're in. The relation between any object and the origin of the playfield is covered by two properties (in the "geometry" section): * "distance" hands us the distance of the object to the origin of the playfield * "theta" hands us an angle to the origin of the playfield However (and this is where the magic comes in) by default playfields have their origin at the lower-left corner which isn't really helpful. Fortunately, there is a menu item in the red-halo menu of any playfield (or the world itself) within the "playfield options" submenu which allows you to specify "origin-at-center" and this will set the origin of the playfield to be the center instead of the lower-left corner. When you do this, you can rotate your objects around the center of the screen using the theta property of the object (you may also want to change the center of rotation for your weights to be at the bottom center). This, in addition with changes in the heading, gives you the exact effect you're looking for. About the only thing left is to align the fulcrum itself properly with the playfield's center and you can do this by setting the line's "distance" to zero (as it will make the line move to the playfield's origin which we changed to be at the center). Both, "theta" and "distance" are pretty powerful when you set the origin of the playfield to be its center - it allows for all sorts of "interesting" rotational effects - try it out sometime. I hope the above is clear enough for you to make this work. If you've got any more questions, let us know. Cheers, - Andreas > -----Original Message----- > From: Christopher Sawtell [mailto:csawtell@paradise.net.nz] > Sent: Monday, July 07, 2003 2:08 PM > To: Andreas Raab > Subject: Re: [Squeakland] Squeak 'non-starter' in U.K. schools? > > > On Tue, 08 Jul 2003 00:02, you wrote: > > Hi Christopher, > > > > > > http://squeakland.org/project.jsp?http://berty.dyndns.org/SeeS > aw.001.pr > > > > I was going to have a look at it but I got a 404 (page not > found) error for > > http://berty.dyndns.org/SeeSaw.001.pr - are you sure the > above is the > > correct URL? > > Sorry, try this one, forgot the hyphen. :-( > http://squeakland.org/project.jsp?http://berty.dyndns.org/See-Saw.001.pr -- C. S.

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Fwd: Re: [Squeakland] Squeak 'non-starter' in U.K. schools?
by Christopher Sawtell 07 Jul '03

07 Jul '03

On Tue, 08 Jul 2003 00:02, you wrote: > Hi Christopher, > > > http://squeakland.org/project.jsp?http://berty.dyndns.org/SeeSaw.001.pr > > I was going to have a look at it but I got a 404 (page not found) error for > http://berty.dyndns.org/SeeSaw.001.pr - are you sure the above is the > correct URL? Sorry, try this one, forgot the hyphen. :-( http://squeakland.org/project.jsp?http://berty.dyndns.org/See-Saw.001.pr -- C. S.

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View from Canada: Strike 3....
by Mankovsky, Sheine 07 Jul '03

07 Jul '03

Hope I got it right this time.... In this era of globalization, it will not seem strange, I am confident, to receive input on what the American national technology plan should include from a non-resident. My name is Sheine Mankovsky, and I am an elected Trustee on the Toronto District School Board (www.tdsb.on.ca). Our Board is the sixth largest public school board in North America with about 300,000 students. Like all local education authorities across North America we are experiencing very challenging times. However, we have summoned the energy nevertheless to begin the trial of an open source software program called Squeak. You are probaby quite familiar with Squeak, and its developers, Alan Kay et al. Squeak is available at www.squeakland.org and there is a link to Don Mills Middle School where the work is being largely done by students facilitated by energetic, dedicated staff and volunteers. We also have an on-line forum where educators and learners can share ideas on Squeak, and get support to improve their skills. Although Squeak is supportive of many curriculum objectives, our primary purpose is to improve learning in Mathematics and Science. We were pleased to have had both Alan Kay and his mentor, Seymour Papert, visit Toronto last February to work with the kids at Don Mills Middle School on Squeak, and talk with teachers about education and the more thoughtful incorporation of technological innovation into the classroom. Needless to say, the visit had an energizing effect. We are working on implementing the use of Squeak on a larger scale in the near future. I'd like to support Alan Kay and Seymour Papert' s position on what education is and its potential enhancement via the use of the computer. In my opinion, and this isn't original thinking at all, the computer is the book. However, this "container"--because that is all a book really is--can serve as an infinitely richer learning medium and not only enhance learning, but I would posit, accelerate it. The rewards of that are potentially huge in individual, societal and global terms. Both Alan Kay and Seymour Papert argue for a child-centred approach that puts both the enjoyment, and the responsibility for learning, much more clearly in the hands of kids. I agree with them fundamentally. With respect to technology, I would refer you to the Maine Project www.mainecite.org with which Seymour Papert has been involved. It's revolutionary today. It should be the norm in the future. In that State, the governor supported the provision of laptop computers to kids, with the objective of broadening the distribution so eventually every child in the system had a personal laptop that they could take home. I would encourage further examination of that project with respect to incorporating its vision into your national plan and of course, not only continuing to support it, but also making it a fundamental purpose to put a computer into the hands of all children. As Seymour Papert said to our teachers: you wouldn't restrict access of students to pencils, so why limit their access to computers! Finally, and most importantly, given the potential of the internet for individualized and group learning opportunities, and the capacity for building virtual learning communities of many types, I would encourage a re-thinking of building-based education. Education, and this isn't a new thought either, takes place in many locations and in many ways. We have encouraged a myopic approach to education. That will not continue to serve us in a globalized, digitalized world. Any contemporary plan needs to encompass more than the traditional school house approach. Access to learning with computers needs to happen in libraries, museums, art galleries, shopping malls, community centres, even parks. We owe it to our children to provide learning opportunities that facilitate them to harness the potential of the new opportunities that the computer presents. After all, they can't change the world for the better without the appropriate means. Sheine Mankovsky Trustee Ward 5, York Centre Toronto District School Board

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FW: view from Canada (again)....
by Mankovsky, Sheine 06 Jul '03

06 Jul '03

I am attaching my input on the development of the U. S. National Technology Plan. Thanks Darius for bringing the opportunity to my attention. > <<In this era of globalization.doc>> > > > Sheine

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view from Canada....
by Mankovsky, Sheine 06 Jul '03

06 Jul '03

I am attaching my input on the development of the U. S. National Technology Plan. Thanks Darius for bringing the opportunity to my attention. Sheine

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squeakland July 2003